Trading Educators
July 11th 03, 03:36 PM
Below is the log file of the Free Chat with Joe Ross.
Topics covered:
- Forex Trading
- Day Trading
- Trade Entry and Exit
- ... and much more.
The full log file can be retrieved here:
http://www.tradingeducators.com/studentsonly/chat_2003_07_08.htm
[21:07] * Joe Ross has joined #te_chat
[21:07] <Joe Ross> Hey! This is Joe.
[21:07] <alum> joe ross: I would like to have your conseil. I have been
analizing forex markets. I have done paper trading getting $ 55% winner / $
45 % losses. I had opened a mini account
[21:07] <dick> I am trading a breakout of sideways congestion that has far
exceeded my target, have sold down twice and am running out of nerve to hold
the remaining position....it is way above my stop ...any suggestions
[21:07] <alum> but I have loose all my credit twotimes. I still want to make
money in the markets but by these days I feel some lazy when analyze markets
[21:07] <Joe Ross> alum: Paper trading Forex is completely misleading. You
will not get even close to those results when you actually trade there
[21:08] <alum> dick : if you are already winning you should trail your stop
loss to protect some profit
[21:08] * JohnT has joined #te_chat
[21:08] <Joe Ross> dick: You cannot let losers run. If prices aren't moving
your way get out quickly
[21:09] <Joe Ross> dick: what time frames are you trading?
[21:09] <alum> why do you think that te chat?
[21:09] * Doji has joined #te_chat
[21:09] * Fred has joined #te_chat
[21:10] * davi671 has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[21:10] <dick> trading shares to end of day data... price has gone ballistic
and gap to last swing support is greater than gap from stop to cost
[21:10] <Joe Ross> Alum: When you actually go to trade on the Forex you are
trading at a bucket shop.
[21:10] * davi671 has joined #te_chat
[21:11] <Joe Ross> There is no such thing as the Forex. It is not an
exchange. You are trading against the broker and you will be filled by the
broker you are trading against.
[21:11] <davi671> :)
[21:11] <Joe Ross> He is going to make you pay the spread, which will be
much wider than you think, thereby giving you fills that amount to a lot of
slippage.
[21:12] <klem436> Forex spreads to wide
[21:12] <alum> I understand joe, but what should I do ? I have worked very
hard, I am not making money, I am bored of market? plese give your advice
[21:12] * minitrade has joined #te_chat
[21:13] <Joe Ross> dick: With so many stocks available for trading, why
would you not choose ones that are trending.
[21:13] <Joe Ross> alum: When you don't know what to do, quit trading until
you have thought it through as to what to do next.
[21:14] <dick> it is trending joe - just too damn fast!
[21:14] <Joe Ross> alum: hard work doesn't have much to do with trading. You
must work smart, not hard.
[21:14] <Joe Ross> If you come to one of our seminars or for a private
tutoring, I will show you how to work smart.
[21:14] <stanh> have traded ES before. Is trading by the minute a good place
to start in learning your methods?
[21:15] <bounced> btw if you thought paltalk was "difficult" to use...don't
even bother clicking the hotcomm link
[21:15] * paul876 has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[21:15] <Doji> On congestion by combination with 1 doji and 3 non dojis,
does it make any difference in the order of the doji and non doji?
[21:15] <Joe Ross> stanh: Trading by the minute will give you a good start.
But remember a book is locked in time.
[21:16] <Joe Ross> Eventually you must go beyond the book. That is why we
give seminars.
[21:16] <JohnT> Hello Joe. Sorry to be late--I just got back from the
monthly meeting of AAFT shere you will be our speaker next month. I have a
question. When position trading the SP mini using the segment counting
method, for example, should I watch the Globex or the big SP chart for my
signals?
[21:16] <Joe Ross> Doji: Makes no difference. Doji is considered to be a
wild card
[21:17] <alum> I have consider to go to your seminaries but by now it is
some complicated to me because of I live in Mexico City and I am a student
[21:17] <Joe Ross> JohnT: use the globex
[21:17] * dick659 has joined #te_chat
[21:17] * rg1715 has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[21:18] <Denise> I opened up a case of Trading By the Minute today and found
a copy with a small tear on the spine. I'll let it go for $125 plus shipping
to the first person who contacts me at either or calls
me tomorrow
[21:18] <Joe Ross> alum: Que sera, sera. Quiero ayudar, pero no es posible
en Mexico.
[21:18] <JohnT> Thanks, some say use the big SP for signals but it makes
sense to use the chart for the market you are trading.
[21:19] <Doji> How about when doji is first, does the minimum one
alternating bar have to be in the middle of the other two ?
[21:19] <Joe Ross> John T: absolutely.
[21:19] <Sparkie> Joe, on the 1,2,3 pivot, I am aware that 2 must have a
lower high and a lower low than 1 by at least 1 tick each. I am also aware
that 3 must be a minimum of 1 tick above 2's low & and a minimum of 1 tick
higher than 2's high. Now, my question is simply this: Is there an advantage
if the above referenced points are exceeded by more than 1 tick each? Joe,
if anything that I stated that I am "aware of" is incorrect, please correct
me.
[21:19] <Joe Ross> Doji: no.
[21:20] <Sherwood> Joe. How do you decide on a time frame to trade? A trend
can occur in congestion depending on time frame. You say Ross hooks don't
occur in congestion but trends (and therefore "hooks") can occur in
congestion depending on time frame.
[21:21] * rg1715 has joined #te_chat
[21:21] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: it is better if they are exceeded by more than
one tick insofar as a clear cut formation is concerned. But actual trading
won't matter.
[21:21] <alum> Me cae bien leer mi idioma en un chat norteamericano:) espero
ir a conocerte en diciembre
[21:22] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: the way I decide on a time frame to trade is
somewhat involved, but basically it stems from the market I'm trading in and
how deep my pocket is at the time.
[21:22] <Joe Ross> Also, how much pain I can handle.
[21:22] <Sparkie> Are you saying that for actual trading 1 tick is as good
as 4 or 5 ticks?
[21:23] <alum> Joe: If I understand what you tell me, It would be convinient
to me if I quit analysis and trading for a while until I regain mental
energy to do both, isn`t it?
[21:24] <JohnT> Joe, I have another question on position trading. Should one
use the 3 contract method you teach for day trading when position trading?
Exit one quickly to cover costs for example, then move one to break even,
then let the other ride if there is something to ride?
[21:24] * dick has quit IRC (Operation timed out)
[21:24] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: Yes! Here's why. If the correction is small, the
chance for momentum to continue in your direction are somewhat better,
thereby making up for the fact that there is not as much room for taking
profits ahead of the breakout of the #2 point
[21:25] <Sherwood> So smaller time frame potentially = less pain. So pick a
time frame and lokk for well formed formations jumping to a bigger time
frame to check S/R, etc?
[21:25] <Joe Ross> Alum: You have it right! Stop! Getting away fromt the
markets will give you new perception
[21:26] <alum> thanks for your time, I will be here next tuesday!
[21:26] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: Right on!
[21:26] <bounced> joe...what do you recommend after trading by the minute
and trading optures and futions...and imo watching the large is a must even
if trading the mini
[21:26] <alum> bye bye
[21:26] * alum has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[21:26] <Joe Ross> Have I missed any questions? Sometimes they come faster
than I can see, and go off the screen before I have a chance to see them
[21:27] <Joe Ross> it gets pretty crowded here.
[21:27] <JohnT> Look up a bit and see mine.
[21:27] <bounced> sorry..did you see my post?
[21:27] <davi671> bounced get trading is a business.
[21:27] <bounced> what do you recommend after trading by the minute/optures
and futions?
[21:28] <Joe Ross> John T: The 3 contract method is not locked in stone.
Sometimes you have to take everything off at once as in scalping.
[21:28] <bounced> ok...thanks david
[21:28] <mikeg> started position trading the ETF's start of this year. has
been a very wonderful and profitable experience
[21:28] <mikeg> nice not have to watch the small movements when have
position trade going
[21:29] <Joe Ross> other times you need to try cashing 1/3 and then 2/3rds.
Or 2/3rds and then 1/3rd
[21:29] <davi671> bounced YW.
[21:29] * Markus_TE has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[21:29] <Joe Ross> You have to look at the which way is working the best.
That is part of trade management.
[21:29] <Sparkie> Joe, I do not understand your answer to my question about
4 or 5 ticks being better than 1 tick, can you please clarify.
[21:30] * Markus_TE has joined #te_chat
[21:30] <Joe Ross> In other words, the formations never change, they will
always follow the law of charts, but the way you manage the trade must of
necessity change in order to conform to the realities of the market.
[21:31] <Joe Ross> bounced: how far back do I have to look to see your post.
Or maybe you could ask it again.
[21:31] <Joe Ross> bounced: I see it.
[21:32] * rg1715878 has joined #te_chat
[21:32] <Joe Ross> davi is right, Trading is a Business would be a good
choice.
[21:32] <bounced> thanks
[21:32] <Joe Ross> and yes, you should always look at the larger time frame
in order to gain perspective
[21:33] * Denise has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[21:34] <bounced> i meant you should watch the full contract (large) even
when trading the mini
[21:34] <bounced> ie...the sp...even if trading the es
[21:34] * rg1715 has quit IRC (Operation timed out)
[21:34] <Joe Ross> bounced: to each his own. I find doing that too confusing
as well as distraction from what I really need to be seeing, which is the
price action on the chart I'm trading.
[21:35] <Jonna311> *
[21:35] <Sparkie> Joe, I do not understand your answer to my question about
4 or 5 ticks being better on a 1,2,3 pivot than 1 tick. Would you please
restate your answer so this dummie can understand. Thanks, Sparkie
[21:35] * dick659 has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[21:35] <Joe Ross> The notion that the big snp leads the mini or vice versa
has proven to be a fallacy
[21:35] <Joe Ross> sparkie: are you familiar with the traders trick entry?
[21:36] <Sparkie> yes
[21:36] <Sherwood> Joe. Watching the S/P emini today it seemed alot of the
time contrary thinking works better than trading normal rules for a
particular set up or formation. But of course the minute you do that it will
act "normally" and catch you on the wrong side. Is that just typical for the
eminis or am I thinking too hard and not trading what I see?
[21:36] <Joe Ross> sparkie: Ok! Now we have a starting point. Next question,
are you daytrading and if so, which time frame?
[21:37] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: you're thinking too hard
[21:37] <Sparkie> E-mini S&P 8:30 to 3:15
[21:37] <Sparkie> On 2 & 5 minute charts
[21:37] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: by time frame I mean how many minutes chart or
is it the daily chart?
[21:38] <Sparkie> 2 & 5 minute
[21:38] <Sherwood> So trade what you see with tight stops if it goes the
wrong way?
[21:38] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: On anything under 10 minutes, you have to
discard the idea of there being enough room for you to take profits before
the breakout.
[21:39] * wlt has joined #te_chat
[21:39] <Joe Ross> So, the less the amount of the correction, the more
likely the momentum pushing prices toward the #2 point will continue
[21:39] <Joe Ross> Does that make sense?
[21:40] * mikeg has left #te_chat (mikeg)
[21:40] <Sparkie> NOT to me
[21:40] <bounced> thanks...but if there is a confirmation from the sp....say
a double top or bottom...then the trade in the mini is more valid...i find
that oftentimes the mini will "overshoot"
[21:41] <Joe Ross> The greater the size of the correction, the less likely
that price will continue to move the way they were moving, and the more
likely that you may see a change in the direction of momentum
[21:41] * STT5647 has joined #te_chat
[21:41] <Joe Ross> bounced: sometimes the SP will overshoot.
[21:42] <bounced> yes...ty
[21:42] <Joe Ross> bounced: the two markets are trading quite differently
with really different participants.
[21:43] <JohnT> Joe, it makes sense to me. What is new to me if I understand
is that I should not use the traders trick entry in a time frame under ten
minutes?
[21:43] <Sherwood> Overshoot on the S/P = stop gunning?
[21:43] <Joe Ross> JohnT: No! Don't think that! That's not what I meant. The
trader's trick is not time dependent.
[21:44] <robin644> size of correction is measured best by expirence or is
there a more imperical measure.
[21:44] <robin644> 3 bars etc.
[21:44] <Joe Ross> We use it every day on the 3 minute charts. It's just
that on very short term charts, it is not necessary to be able to take
profits before the breakout.
[21:45] <Joe Ross> You are trading short term momentum, and when you are
doing that, you usually scalp.
[21:45] * Doji has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[21:45] <Joe Ross> robin: measured best by experience, but you can always
use the 3 bar count.
[21:46] <Sparkie> Joe, What's the best method to use in entering a breakout
or breakdown?
[21:46] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: Yes! great that you realize that.
[21:47] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: The Traders Trick. That's what it's for -- to
get you in ahead of the breakout or breakdown as you call it.
[21:47] <Sparkie> Joe I mean on a 2 or 5 minute chart for the breakdown or
breakout. What's the best method?
[21:48] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: No difference. time frame doesn't matter
[21:48] <Joe Ross> My number one entry method is the traders trick,
regardless of time frame.
[21:48] <Joe Ross> However, here's something you might find interesting.
[21:49] <davi671> sparkie do you mean a b/o from a trading range.
[21:49] <Joe Ross> when I was in Germany, one of the guys at the seminar had
weekly charts of the Dow going back many many years.
[21:49] <Sherwood> Joe. is it best to watch an overshoot develop to see if
it has enough momentum (volume) to keep moving or retraces to form a Rh
before doing anything?
[21:49] <Joe Ross> There was not once that the traders trick failed to work
ahead of the ross hook
[21:50] <Sparkie> yes, but on a 2 minute chart it might be only 3 or 4 bars.
[21:51] <davi671> 3-4 bars is not a trading range.
[21:51] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: I have to differentiate between momentum and
volume. A strong move in momentum accompanied by good volume is definitely
an entry opportunity. However, you may have to drop down in time frame to be
able to get in.
[21:51] <Sparkie> what is a trading range?
[21:52] <Joe Ross> Exactly that happened to me this morning. I my third
entry attempt, the move was very strong on good volume.
[21:52] <Joe Ross> there was no entry via the 3 minute charts, but there was
a traders trick on the 1 minute chart and I took it, got my $$ and left for
the day.
[21:53] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: a trading range is a consolidation area
containing at least 20 bars
[21:54] <robin644> you get filled fast enough you can trade 1 min charts
regularily
[21:55] <davi671> Joe was that entry at 9:02?
[21:56] <Joe Ross> I don't remember the time. But it was the second thrust
bar moving down after the high made around 9:00
[21:56] <Sherwood> I was counting bars today (S/P emini) I could not get a
count to work between 20-30 unless I adjusted time frame. Am I being too
rigid or looking at the wrong time frame?
[21:56] <Joe Ross> There were 2 strong thrusts, a very minor correction and
then bam the momentum carried prices lower.
[21:57] <Joe Ross> It was obvious they were going for the stops from the
early morning low.
[21:57] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: counting bars for what?
[21:59] <Sherwood> Sorry . Breakout of a trading the range I thought I saw
in the middle of the day
[22:00] <bounced> joe...is it possible to use the trader's trick in
reverse...ie to signal a breakdown
[22:00] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: I would not change time frames just so I could
find a trading range. Sometimes they are simply not there.
[22:00] * kj874 has joined #te_chat
[22:00] <Joe Ross> SAme thing is true of 1-2-3s and hooks. There are days
when they are not there, at least not ones that have you name on them.
[22:01] <Joe Ross> bounced: If a traders trick turns into a 4 bar
correction, the probabilities are for congestion, not a change of trend
[22:02] <bounced> k...thanks
[22:03] <Joe Ross> Anybody coming to the Chicago seminar in August
[22:04] <davi671> What time is Dinner :)
[22:04] <Joe Ross> Bounced, Sparkie, and Sherwood should all try to make it
:)
[22:04] <Sherwood> Probably Atlanta in sept
[22:04] <Fred> I'll be there
[22:04] <Joe Ross> Good for you Sherwood
[22:04] <bounced> k...august = bad time for me
[22:05] <bounced> so essentially...you can watch level 2 and see whether the
bid or ask is building?
[22:05] <Sparkie> Thanks Joe. I'm gone.
[22:05] * Sparkie has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[22:05] <Joe Ross> Did you know you can attend the first 1/2 day for free?
You only pay if you stay.
[22:06] <Joe Ross> We cover an awful lot in the first 1/2 day
[22:06] <minitrade> looking to come to Atlanta
[22:06] <robin644> 2 day seminar ?
[22:06] <davi671> Doesn't anyone like
[22:06] <davi671> Chicago
[22:06] <Joe Ross> robin 2 days with a full money back guarantee
[22:07] * bounced has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[22:07] <Joe Ross> davi: probably not now that they know you are there :)
[22:07] <davi671> :) :)
[22:07] * bounced has joined #te_chat
[22:08] <davi671> :(
[22:08] <Sherwood> Joe Thanks alot. I gotta go put my son to bed See you
next week @ chat
[22:08] <bounced> sorry went to look at seminars
[22:08] <Joe Ross> Ok Sherwood
[22:08] * STT5647 has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[22:09] * Sherwood has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[22:09] <Joe Ross> We are going a bit longer to make up for being so late
[22:09] * Sherwood has joined #te_chat
[22:09] <bounced> question was...so for a short term cit you watch to see if
the bid or asked side below/above the market is growing?
[22:10] * stanh has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[22:10] <davi671> Bounce are trading stocks?
[22:10] <Joe Ross> bounced: what is cit?
[22:10] <bounced> no futures
[22:10] <bounced> change in trend
[22:10] <davi671> Forget the bid and ask screen
[22:10] <robin644> you get level 2 in futures ?
[22:11] <bounced> ie...to get an idea whether the traders's trick is being
implemented by a large player....
[22:11] <Joe Ross> bounced: amen to that. forget those text based screens
and watch the doggone chart
[22:11] <bounced> yes you can get depth for futes
[22:11] <davi671> I find to be a waste and distracting.
[22:11] <robin644> oh
[22:11] <Joe Ross> robin: yes we get the equivalent -- sort of -- but who
cares. we never look at it.
[22:12] <bounced> ok..
[22:12] <bounced> thanks
[22:12] <robin644> right.. just need it to place orders myself
[22:12] <Joe Ross> anything that takes your eye off the price action is a
distraction
[22:12] <davi671> every time I watch the bid/ask spread I get in trouble.
[22:13] <bounced> not talking about spread
[22:13] <davi671> bid/ask size
[22:13] <bounced> talking about size of bid and asked outside the inside
market
[22:13] <robin644> all part of the same thing IOM
[22:13] <robin644> IMO
[22:13] <davi671> Yes
[22:14] <davi671> it changes so fast it doesn't have much value imo.
[22:14] <Joe Ross> Well folks, there is where we came in--you guys were all
talking to each other.
[22:14] <bounced> i have heard some discussion of candlesticks....all the
"joe ross" charts i have seen are bars
[22:15] <Joe Ross> The chat will be on the website tomorrow.
[22:15] <bounced> thanks joe...
[22:15] <Joe Ross> Good night all
[22:15] <davi671> Good night Joe.
[22:15] * Joe Ross has quit IRC (Bye bye)
Topics covered:
- Forex Trading
- Day Trading
- Trade Entry and Exit
- ... and much more.
The full log file can be retrieved here:
http://www.tradingeducators.com/studentsonly/chat_2003_07_08.htm
[21:07] * Joe Ross has joined #te_chat
[21:07] <Joe Ross> Hey! This is Joe.
[21:07] <alum> joe ross: I would like to have your conseil. I have been
analizing forex markets. I have done paper trading getting $ 55% winner / $
45 % losses. I had opened a mini account
[21:07] <dick> I am trading a breakout of sideways congestion that has far
exceeded my target, have sold down twice and am running out of nerve to hold
the remaining position....it is way above my stop ...any suggestions
[21:07] <alum> but I have loose all my credit twotimes. I still want to make
money in the markets but by these days I feel some lazy when analyze markets
[21:07] <Joe Ross> alum: Paper trading Forex is completely misleading. You
will not get even close to those results when you actually trade there
[21:08] <alum> dick : if you are already winning you should trail your stop
loss to protect some profit
[21:08] * JohnT has joined #te_chat
[21:08] <Joe Ross> dick: You cannot let losers run. If prices aren't moving
your way get out quickly
[21:09] <Joe Ross> dick: what time frames are you trading?
[21:09] <alum> why do you think that te chat?
[21:09] * Doji has joined #te_chat
[21:09] * Fred has joined #te_chat
[21:10] * davi671 has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[21:10] <dick> trading shares to end of day data... price has gone ballistic
and gap to last swing support is greater than gap from stop to cost
[21:10] <Joe Ross> Alum: When you actually go to trade on the Forex you are
trading at a bucket shop.
[21:10] * davi671 has joined #te_chat
[21:11] <Joe Ross> There is no such thing as the Forex. It is not an
exchange. You are trading against the broker and you will be filled by the
broker you are trading against.
[21:11] <davi671> :)
[21:11] <Joe Ross> He is going to make you pay the spread, which will be
much wider than you think, thereby giving you fills that amount to a lot of
slippage.
[21:12] <klem436> Forex spreads to wide
[21:12] <alum> I understand joe, but what should I do ? I have worked very
hard, I am not making money, I am bored of market? plese give your advice
[21:12] * minitrade has joined #te_chat
[21:13] <Joe Ross> dick: With so many stocks available for trading, why
would you not choose ones that are trending.
[21:13] <Joe Ross> alum: When you don't know what to do, quit trading until
you have thought it through as to what to do next.
[21:14] <dick> it is trending joe - just too damn fast!
[21:14] <Joe Ross> alum: hard work doesn't have much to do with trading. You
must work smart, not hard.
[21:14] <Joe Ross> If you come to one of our seminars or for a private
tutoring, I will show you how to work smart.
[21:14] <stanh> have traded ES before. Is trading by the minute a good place
to start in learning your methods?
[21:15] <bounced> btw if you thought paltalk was "difficult" to use...don't
even bother clicking the hotcomm link
[21:15] * paul876 has quit IRC (Bye bye)
[21:15] <Doji> On congestion by combination with 1 doji and 3 non dojis,
does it make any difference in the order of the doji and non doji?
[21:15] <Joe Ross> stanh: Trading by the minute will give you a good start.
But remember a book is locked in time.
[21:16] <Joe Ross> Eventually you must go beyond the book. That is why we
give seminars.
[21:16] <JohnT> Hello Joe. Sorry to be late--I just got back from the
monthly meeting of AAFT shere you will be our speaker next month. I have a
question. When position trading the SP mini using the segment counting
method, for example, should I watch the Globex or the big SP chart for my
signals?
[21:16] <Joe Ross> Doji: Makes no difference. Doji is considered to be a
wild card
[21:17] <alum> I have consider to go to your seminaries but by now it is
some complicated to me because of I live in Mexico City and I am a student
[21:17] <Joe Ross> JohnT: use the globex
[21:17] * dick659 has joined #te_chat
[21:17] * rg1715 has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[21:18] <Denise> I opened up a case of Trading By the Minute today and found
a copy with a small tear on the spine. I'll let it go for $125 plus shipping
to the first person who contacts me at either or calls
me tomorrow
[21:18] <Joe Ross> alum: Que sera, sera. Quiero ayudar, pero no es posible
en Mexico.
[21:18] <JohnT> Thanks, some say use the big SP for signals but it makes
sense to use the chart for the market you are trading.
[21:19] <Doji> How about when doji is first, does the minimum one
alternating bar have to be in the middle of the other two ?
[21:19] <Joe Ross> John T: absolutely.
[21:19] <Sparkie> Joe, on the 1,2,3 pivot, I am aware that 2 must have a
lower high and a lower low than 1 by at least 1 tick each. I am also aware
that 3 must be a minimum of 1 tick above 2's low & and a minimum of 1 tick
higher than 2's high. Now, my question is simply this: Is there an advantage
if the above referenced points are exceeded by more than 1 tick each? Joe,
if anything that I stated that I am "aware of" is incorrect, please correct
me.
[21:19] <Joe Ross> Doji: no.
[21:20] <Sherwood> Joe. How do you decide on a time frame to trade? A trend
can occur in congestion depending on time frame. You say Ross hooks don't
occur in congestion but trends (and therefore "hooks") can occur in
congestion depending on time frame.
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[21:21] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: it is better if they are exceeded by more than
one tick insofar as a clear cut formation is concerned. But actual trading
won't matter.
[21:21] <alum> Me cae bien leer mi idioma en un chat norteamericano:) espero
ir a conocerte en diciembre
[21:22] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: the way I decide on a time frame to trade is
somewhat involved, but basically it stems from the market I'm trading in and
how deep my pocket is at the time.
[21:22] <Joe Ross> Also, how much pain I can handle.
[21:22] <Sparkie> Are you saying that for actual trading 1 tick is as good
as 4 or 5 ticks?
[21:23] <alum> Joe: If I understand what you tell me, It would be convinient
to me if I quit analysis and trading for a while until I regain mental
energy to do both, isn`t it?
[21:24] <JohnT> Joe, I have another question on position trading. Should one
use the 3 contract method you teach for day trading when position trading?
Exit one quickly to cover costs for example, then move one to break even,
then let the other ride if there is something to ride?
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[21:24] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: Yes! Here's why. If the correction is small, the
chance for momentum to continue in your direction are somewhat better,
thereby making up for the fact that there is not as much room for taking
profits ahead of the breakout of the #2 point
[21:25] <Sherwood> So smaller time frame potentially = less pain. So pick a
time frame and lokk for well formed formations jumping to a bigger time
frame to check S/R, etc?
[21:25] <Joe Ross> Alum: You have it right! Stop! Getting away fromt the
markets will give you new perception
[21:26] <alum> thanks for your time, I will be here next tuesday!
[21:26] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: Right on!
[21:26] <bounced> joe...what do you recommend after trading by the minute
and trading optures and futions...and imo watching the large is a must even
if trading the mini
[21:26] <alum> bye bye
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[21:26] <Joe Ross> Have I missed any questions? Sometimes they come faster
than I can see, and go off the screen before I have a chance to see them
[21:27] <Joe Ross> it gets pretty crowded here.
[21:27] <JohnT> Look up a bit and see mine.
[21:27] <bounced> sorry..did you see my post?
[21:27] <davi671> bounced get trading is a business.
[21:27] <bounced> what do you recommend after trading by the minute/optures
and futions?
[21:28] <Joe Ross> John T: The 3 contract method is not locked in stone.
Sometimes you have to take everything off at once as in scalping.
[21:28] <bounced> ok...thanks david
[21:28] <mikeg> started position trading the ETF's start of this year. has
been a very wonderful and profitable experience
[21:28] <mikeg> nice not have to watch the small movements when have
position trade going
[21:29] <Joe Ross> other times you need to try cashing 1/3 and then 2/3rds.
Or 2/3rds and then 1/3rd
[21:29] <davi671> bounced YW.
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[21:29] <Joe Ross> You have to look at the which way is working the best.
That is part of trade management.
[21:29] <Sparkie> Joe, I do not understand your answer to my question about
4 or 5 ticks being better than 1 tick, can you please clarify.
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[21:30] <Joe Ross> In other words, the formations never change, they will
always follow the law of charts, but the way you manage the trade must of
necessity change in order to conform to the realities of the market.
[21:31] <Joe Ross> bounced: how far back do I have to look to see your post.
Or maybe you could ask it again.
[21:31] <Joe Ross> bounced: I see it.
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[21:32] <Joe Ross> davi is right, Trading is a Business would be a good
choice.
[21:32] <bounced> thanks
[21:32] <Joe Ross> and yes, you should always look at the larger time frame
in order to gain perspective
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[21:34] <bounced> i meant you should watch the full contract (large) even
when trading the mini
[21:34] <bounced> ie...the sp...even if trading the es
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[21:34] <Joe Ross> bounced: to each his own. I find doing that too confusing
as well as distraction from what I really need to be seeing, which is the
price action on the chart I'm trading.
[21:35] <Jonna311> *
[21:35] <Sparkie> Joe, I do not understand your answer to my question about
4 or 5 ticks being better on a 1,2,3 pivot than 1 tick. Would you please
restate your answer so this dummie can understand. Thanks, Sparkie
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[21:35] <Joe Ross> The notion that the big snp leads the mini or vice versa
has proven to be a fallacy
[21:35] <Joe Ross> sparkie: are you familiar with the traders trick entry?
[21:36] <Sparkie> yes
[21:36] <Sherwood> Joe. Watching the S/P emini today it seemed alot of the
time contrary thinking works better than trading normal rules for a
particular set up or formation. But of course the minute you do that it will
act "normally" and catch you on the wrong side. Is that just typical for the
eminis or am I thinking too hard and not trading what I see?
[21:36] <Joe Ross> sparkie: Ok! Now we have a starting point. Next question,
are you daytrading and if so, which time frame?
[21:37] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: you're thinking too hard
[21:37] <Sparkie> E-mini S&P 8:30 to 3:15
[21:37] <Sparkie> On 2 & 5 minute charts
[21:37] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: by time frame I mean how many minutes chart or
is it the daily chart?
[21:38] <Sparkie> 2 & 5 minute
[21:38] <Sherwood> So trade what you see with tight stops if it goes the
wrong way?
[21:38] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: On anything under 10 minutes, you have to
discard the idea of there being enough room for you to take profits before
the breakout.
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[21:39] <Joe Ross> So, the less the amount of the correction, the more
likely the momentum pushing prices toward the #2 point will continue
[21:39] <Joe Ross> Does that make sense?
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[21:40] <Sparkie> NOT to me
[21:40] <bounced> thanks...but if there is a confirmation from the sp....say
a double top or bottom...then the trade in the mini is more valid...i find
that oftentimes the mini will "overshoot"
[21:41] <Joe Ross> The greater the size of the correction, the less likely
that price will continue to move the way they were moving, and the more
likely that you may see a change in the direction of momentum
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[21:41] <Joe Ross> bounced: sometimes the SP will overshoot.
[21:42] <bounced> yes...ty
[21:42] <Joe Ross> bounced: the two markets are trading quite differently
with really different participants.
[21:43] <JohnT> Joe, it makes sense to me. What is new to me if I understand
is that I should not use the traders trick entry in a time frame under ten
minutes?
[21:43] <Sherwood> Overshoot on the S/P = stop gunning?
[21:43] <Joe Ross> JohnT: No! Don't think that! That's not what I meant. The
trader's trick is not time dependent.
[21:44] <robin644> size of correction is measured best by expirence or is
there a more imperical measure.
[21:44] <robin644> 3 bars etc.
[21:44] <Joe Ross> We use it every day on the 3 minute charts. It's just
that on very short term charts, it is not necessary to be able to take
profits before the breakout.
[21:45] <Joe Ross> You are trading short term momentum, and when you are
doing that, you usually scalp.
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[21:45] <Joe Ross> robin: measured best by experience, but you can always
use the 3 bar count.
[21:46] <Sparkie> Joe, What's the best method to use in entering a breakout
or breakdown?
[21:46] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: Yes! great that you realize that.
[21:47] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: The Traders Trick. That's what it's for -- to
get you in ahead of the breakout or breakdown as you call it.
[21:47] <Sparkie> Joe I mean on a 2 or 5 minute chart for the breakdown or
breakout. What's the best method?
[21:48] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: No difference. time frame doesn't matter
[21:48] <Joe Ross> My number one entry method is the traders trick,
regardless of time frame.
[21:48] <Joe Ross> However, here's something you might find interesting.
[21:49] <davi671> sparkie do you mean a b/o from a trading range.
[21:49] <Joe Ross> when I was in Germany, one of the guys at the seminar had
weekly charts of the Dow going back many many years.
[21:49] <Sherwood> Joe. is it best to watch an overshoot develop to see if
it has enough momentum (volume) to keep moving or retraces to form a Rh
before doing anything?
[21:49] <Joe Ross> There was not once that the traders trick failed to work
ahead of the ross hook
[21:50] <Sparkie> yes, but on a 2 minute chart it might be only 3 or 4 bars.
[21:51] <davi671> 3-4 bars is not a trading range.
[21:51] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: I have to differentiate between momentum and
volume. A strong move in momentum accompanied by good volume is definitely
an entry opportunity. However, you may have to drop down in time frame to be
able to get in.
[21:51] <Sparkie> what is a trading range?
[21:52] <Joe Ross> Exactly that happened to me this morning. I my third
entry attempt, the move was very strong on good volume.
[21:52] <Joe Ross> there was no entry via the 3 minute charts, but there was
a traders trick on the 1 minute chart and I took it, got my $$ and left for
the day.
[21:53] <Joe Ross> Sparkie: a trading range is a consolidation area
containing at least 20 bars
[21:54] <robin644> you get filled fast enough you can trade 1 min charts
regularily
[21:55] <davi671> Joe was that entry at 9:02?
[21:56] <Joe Ross> I don't remember the time. But it was the second thrust
bar moving down after the high made around 9:00
[21:56] <Sherwood> I was counting bars today (S/P emini) I could not get a
count to work between 20-30 unless I adjusted time frame. Am I being too
rigid or looking at the wrong time frame?
[21:56] <Joe Ross> There were 2 strong thrusts, a very minor correction and
then bam the momentum carried prices lower.
[21:57] <Joe Ross> It was obvious they were going for the stops from the
early morning low.
[21:57] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: counting bars for what?
[21:59] <Sherwood> Sorry . Breakout of a trading the range I thought I saw
in the middle of the day
[22:00] <bounced> joe...is it possible to use the trader's trick in
reverse...ie to signal a breakdown
[22:00] <Joe Ross> Sherwood: I would not change time frames just so I could
find a trading range. Sometimes they are simply not there.
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[22:00] <Joe Ross> SAme thing is true of 1-2-3s and hooks. There are days
when they are not there, at least not ones that have you name on them.
[22:01] <Joe Ross> bounced: If a traders trick turns into a 4 bar
correction, the probabilities are for congestion, not a change of trend
[22:02] <bounced> k...thanks
[22:03] <Joe Ross> Anybody coming to the Chicago seminar in August
[22:04] <davi671> What time is Dinner :)
[22:04] <Joe Ross> Bounced, Sparkie, and Sherwood should all try to make it
:)
[22:04] <Sherwood> Probably Atlanta in sept
[22:04] <Fred> I'll be there
[22:04] <Joe Ross> Good for you Sherwood
[22:04] <bounced> k...august = bad time for me
[22:05] <bounced> so essentially...you can watch level 2 and see whether the
bid or ask is building?
[22:05] <Sparkie> Thanks Joe. I'm gone.
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[22:05] <Joe Ross> Did you know you can attend the first 1/2 day for free?
You only pay if you stay.
[22:06] <Joe Ross> We cover an awful lot in the first 1/2 day
[22:06] <minitrade> looking to come to Atlanta
[22:06] <robin644> 2 day seminar ?
[22:06] <davi671> Doesn't anyone like
[22:06] <davi671> Chicago
[22:06] <Joe Ross> robin 2 days with a full money back guarantee
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[22:07] <Joe Ross> davi: probably not now that they know you are there :)
[22:07] <davi671> :) :)
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[22:08] <davi671> :(
[22:08] <Sherwood> Joe Thanks alot. I gotta go put my son to bed See you
next week @ chat
[22:08] <bounced> sorry went to look at seminars
[22:08] <Joe Ross> Ok Sherwood
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[22:09] <Joe Ross> We are going a bit longer to make up for being so late
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[22:09] <bounced> question was...so for a short term cit you watch to see if
the bid or asked side below/above the market is growing?
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[22:10] <davi671> Bounce are trading stocks?
[22:10] <Joe Ross> bounced: what is cit?
[22:10] <bounced> no futures
[22:10] <bounced> change in trend
[22:10] <davi671> Forget the bid and ask screen
[22:10] <robin644> you get level 2 in futures ?
[22:11] <bounced> ie...to get an idea whether the traders's trick is being
implemented by a large player....
[22:11] <Joe Ross> bounced: amen to that. forget those text based screens
and watch the doggone chart
[22:11] <bounced> yes you can get depth for futes
[22:11] <davi671> I find to be a waste and distracting.
[22:11] <robin644> oh
[22:11] <Joe Ross> robin: yes we get the equivalent -- sort of -- but who
cares. we never look at it.
[22:12] <bounced> ok..
[22:12] <bounced> thanks
[22:12] <robin644> right.. just need it to place orders myself
[22:12] <Joe Ross> anything that takes your eye off the price action is a
distraction
[22:12] <davi671> every time I watch the bid/ask spread I get in trouble.
[22:13] <bounced> not talking about spread
[22:13] <davi671> bid/ask size
[22:13] <bounced> talking about size of bid and asked outside the inside
market
[22:13] <robin644> all part of the same thing IOM
[22:13] <robin644> IMO
[22:13] <davi671> Yes
[22:14] <davi671> it changes so fast it doesn't have much value imo.
[22:14] <Joe Ross> Well folks, there is where we came in--you guys were all
talking to each other.
[22:14] <bounced> i have heard some discussion of candlesticks....all the
"joe ross" charts i have seen are bars
[22:15] <Joe Ross> The chat will be on the website tomorrow.
[22:15] <bounced> thanks joe...
[22:15] <Joe Ross> Good night all
[22:15] <davi671> Good night Joe.
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