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Stray Dog[_2_]
March 14th 09, 10:52 PM
Airline deregulation is a failure. Here are quotes from a book (1992):

******** quotes ***************

Under deregulation, the airline industry lost all of the money it made
since the Wright Brothers' inaugural flight at Kitty Hawk in 1903, and
$1.5 bil more.

After more than 200 bankruptcies and 50 mergers, we now fly the oldest
and most repainted fleet of aircraft in the developed world.

Of the 176 airlines to which deregulation gave birth, only one remains
and, as of 1992, it too was in bankruptcy.

In 1991, fully 30 percent of the nations fleet capacity was in bankruptcy
or close to it.

All the US airlines together are now worth less than Japan Airlines
individually.

Despite predictions to the contrary, deregulation has produced the highest
level of national and regional concentration in history.

Although more people are flying than ever before, the percentage increase
in domestic airline passenger boardings was lower during the first decade
of deregulation than in every decade that preceded it.

While most passengers now fly on a discounted ticker, the full fare has
risen sharply under deregulation, far exceeding the rate of inflation, and
the discounts are now encumbered with onerous prepurchase,
nonrefundability and Saturday-night stayover restrictions. today's airline
ticket is therefore an inferior product compared to ints counterpart under
regulation, which provided passengers with considerable flexibility.

Despite allegations to the contrary, average real fuel-adjusted ticket
prices are higher than they would have been had the pre-deregulation trend
continued. Pricing has not only increased above pre-deregulation trend
levels, it has grown monstrously discriminatory.

Industry costs increased sharply under deregulation, while the long-term
trend in productivity improvements fell flat.

Hubbing-and-spoking, the dominant magatrend on the deregulation landscape,
has caused some air travel to regress back to the DC-3 era, robbing
aviation of its inherend advantage and people's most precious
commodity--time.

Business travelers lose billions of dollars in productivity as a result of
circuitous and time-consuming hub-and-spoke operations.

Service has declined under deregulation, while consumer fraud has
increased.

Although fatality statistics do not reflect it, the margin of safety has
also declined.

Labor-management relations have deteriorated.

Americans now rate airlines as the industry in which they have the least
confidence.

*********** end of quotes **********

The above are copied from page xiv of the preface of the book:

"Airline Deregulation And Laissez-Faire Mythology" by Paul Stephen Dempsey
and Andrew R. Goetz (c 1992, Quorum Press, 372 pp, incl. index).

And, what is the overview? Here it is from page xiii of the preface:

Quote:

"Beginning in the Carter administration, and reaching its zenith in the
Reagan administrtion, federal oversight of industries as diverse as
airlines, buses, railroads, trucking, telephones, cable television, radio
and television broadcasting, banking, savings and loans, and oil and gas
was significantly trashed. The transformation and radical shrinking of
government proceeded along two, sometimes independent planes. Congress
passed major legislation mandating various forms of deregulation between
1976 and 1985, while successive presidents appointed free market
theologians to the regulatory agencies with the mission to exceed their
legislative mandate and ignore their oaths of office.

The laissez-faire economists who convinced Congress to promulgate the
Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 assured us that deregulation would result
neither in increased concentration nor in destructive competition. This
was true, they insisted, because the industry was structurally competitive,
possessed few economies of scale, and was impeded by few barriers to
entry. This book compares those predictions and assurances with the
unfortunate results of deregulation." (go back to list of quotes above)

Rod Speed
March 15th 09, 12:00 AM
Stray Dog wrote:

> Airline deregulation is a failure.

Like hell it is. Its delivered much cheaper travel.

> Here are quotes from a book (1992):

Just because some damned book claims it doesnt make it gospel.

> ******** quotes ***************

> Under deregulation, the airline industry lost all of the money it made since the Wright Brothers' inaugural flight at
> Kitty Hawk in 1903, and $1.5 bil more.

Pig ignorant lie. And what matters is what the travelling public
got cost of travel wise, not what profit the industry made anyway.

> After more than 200 bankruptcies and 50 mergers, we now fly the oldest and most repainted fleet of aircraft in the
> developed world.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Have a look at who buys new aircraft, stupid.

> Of the 176 airlines to which deregulation gave birth, only one remains and, as of 1992, it too was in bankruptcy.

Dinosaurs cant work out how to operate with no regulation ?

They go bust, as they should.

> In 1991, fully 30 percent of the nations fleet capacity was in
> bankruptcy or close to it.

Dinosaurs cant work out how to operate with no regulation ?

They go bust, as they should.

> All the US airlines together are now worth less than Japan Airlines individually.

Who cares ? What matters is what has happened to the cost of travel.

> Despite predictions to the contrary, deregulation has produced the highest level of national and regional
> concentration in history.

Another pig ignorant lie.

> Although more people are flying than ever before,

Thats what matters, stupid.

AND there is the tiny matter that the crash rate is lower than ever before too.

> the percentage increase in domestic airline passenger boardings was lower during the first decade of deregulation than
> in every decade that preceded it.

What matters is the number who travel and the price they pay to do that, fool.

> While most passengers now fly on a discounted ticker,

Funny that.

> the full fare has risen sharply under deregulation,

Irrelevant when no one except the stupid pays full price.

> far exceeding the rate of inflation,

Even more irrelevant when no one except the stupid pays full price.

> and the discounts are now encumbered with onerous prepurchase, nonrefundability and Saturday-night stayover
> restrictions.

Those paying for the ticket clearly dont care enough about it to pay full price, fool.

> today's airline ticket is therefore an inferior product
> compared to ints counterpart under regulation, which provided passengers with considerable flexibility.

Pity about the much higher price. You're always welcome to continue
to pay a much higher price for that if you are actually that stupid.

> Despite allegations to the contrary, average real fuel-adjusted ticket prices are higher than they would have been had
> the pre-deregulation trend continued.

Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> Pricing has not only increased above pre-deregulation trend levels, it has grown monstrously discriminatory.

It aint disciminatory when you are welcome to pay full price if you are that stupid.

In fact you didnt get that choice pre deregulation, fool.

> Industry costs increased sharply under deregulation, while the long-term trend in productivity improvements fell flat.

You're lying now. Most obviously with the number of empty seats.

> Hubbing-and-spoking, the dominant magatrend on the deregulation
> landscape, has caused some air travel to regress back to the DC-3 era,

Lying, again. Its nothing like the DC3 era.

> robbing aviation of its inherend advantage and people's most precious commodity--time.

How odd that they continue to fly in vastly more numbers than they used to, fool.

> Business travelers lose billions of dollars in productivity as a
> result of circuitous and time-consuming hub-and-spoke operations.

They're always welcome to pay full fare and fly direct, fool.

> Service has declined under deregulation,

Because hardly anyone wants to pay for that, fool.

> while consumer fraud has increased.

Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> Although fatality statistics do not reflect it, the margin of safety has also declined.

Lying, again.

> Labor-management relations have deteriorated.

Who cares ?

> Americans now rate airlines as the industry in which they have the least confidence.

You're lying, again.

> *********** end of quotes **********

> The above are copied from page xiv of the preface of the book:

> "Airline Deregulation And Laissez-Faire Mythology" by Paul Stephen Dempsey and Andrew R. Goetz (c 1992, Quorum Press,
> 372 pp, incl. index).

Just another steaming turd written by fools that dont have a ****ing clue.

> And, what is the overview? Here it is from page xiii of the preface:

> Quote:

> "Beginning in the Carter administration, and reaching its zenith in the Reagan administrtion, federal oversight of
> industries as diverse as airlines, buses, railroads, trucking, telephones, cable television, radio and television
> broadcasting, banking, savings and loans, and oil and gas was significantly trashed.

Like that or lump it.

> The transformation and radical shrinking of government proceeded along two, sometimes independent planes. Congress
> passed major legislation mandating various forms of deregulation between 1976 and 1985, while successive presidents
> appointed free market theologians to the regulatory agencies with the mission to exceed their legislative mandate and
> ignore their oaths of office.

And the voters clearly didnt care enough about that to give them the bums rush at the ballot box.

You get to like that or lump it.

> The laissez-faire economists who convinced Congress to promulgate the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 assured us that
> deregulation would result neither in increased concentration

It didnt.

> nor in destructive competition. This was true, they insisted, because the industry was structurally competitive,
> possessed few economies of scale, and was impeded by few barriers to entry.

And they were right about all of those.

> This book compares those predictions and assurances with the unfortunate results of deregulation." (go back to list of
> quotes above)

Pity they just ignore what matters, the number who travel, the
cost of that travel, and the dramatic improvement in the crash rate.

Corse any cushy protected industry will be worse for the participants than a deregulated one.

phil scott
March 15th 09, 03:11 AM
On Mar 14, 3:52*pm, Stray Dog > wrote:
> Airline deregulation is a failure. Here are quotes from a book (1992):
>
> ******** quotes ***************
>
> Under deregulation, the airline industry lost all of the money it made
> since the Wright Brothers' inaugural flight at Kitty Hawk in 1903, and
> $1.5 bil more.
>
> After more than 200 bankruptcies and 50 mergers, we now fly the oldest
> and most repainted fleet of aircraft in the developed world.
>
> Of the 176 airlines to which deregulation gave birth, only one remains
> and, as of 1992, it too was in bankruptcy.
>
> In 1991, fully 30 percent of the nations fleet capacity was in bankruptcy
> or close *to it.
>
> All the US airlines together are now worth less than Japan Airlines
> individually.
>
> Despite predictions to the contrary, deregulation has produced the highest
> level of national and regional concentration in history.
>
> Although more people are flying than ever before, the percentage increase
> in domestic airline passenger boardings was lower during the first decade
> of deregulation than in every decade that preceded it.
>
> While most passengers now fly on a discounted ticker, the full fare has
> risen sharply under deregulation, far exceeding the rate of inflation, and
> the discounts are now encumbered with onerous prepurchase,
> nonrefundability and Saturday-night stayover restrictions. today's airline
> ticket is therefore an inferior product compared to ints counterpart under
> regulation, which provided passengers with considerable flexibility.
>
> Despite allegations to the contrary, average real fuel-adjusted ticket
> prices are higher than they would have been had the pre-deregulation trend
> continued. Pricing has not only increased above pre-deregulation trend
> levels, it has grown monstrously discriminatory.
>
> Industry costs increased sharply under deregulation, while the long-term
> trend in productivity improvements fell flat.
>
> Hubbing-and-spoking, the dominant magatrend on the deregulation landscape,
> has caused some air travel to regress back to the DC-3 era, robbing
> aviation of its inherend advantage and people's most precious
> commodity--time.
>
> Business travelers lose billions of dollars in productivity as a result of
> circuitous and time-consuming hub-and-spoke operations.
>
> Service has declined under deregulation, while consumer fraud has
> increased.
>
> Although fatality statistics do not reflect it, the margin of safety has
> also declined.
>
> Labor-management relations have deteriorated.
>
> Americans now rate airlines as the industry in which they have the least
> confidence.
>
> *********** end of quotes **********
>
> The above are copied from page xiv of the preface of the book:
>
> "Airline Deregulation And Laissez-Faire Mythology" by Paul Stephen Dempsey
> and Andrew R. Goetz (c 1992, Quorum Press, 372 pp, incl. index).
>
> And, what is the overview? Here it is from page xiii of the preface:
>
> Quote:
>
> "Beginning in the Carter administration, and reaching its zenith in the
> Reagan administrtion, federal oversight of industries as diverse as
> airlines, buses, railroads, trucking, telephones, cable television, radio
> and television broadcasting, banking, savings and loans, and oil and gas
> was significantly trashed. The transformation and radical shrinking of
> government proceeded along two, sometimes independent planes. Congress
> passed major legislation mandating various forms of deregulation between
> 1976 and 1985, while successive presidents appointed free market
> theologians to the regulatory agencies with the mission to exceed their
> legislative mandate and ignore their oaths of office.
>
> The laissez-faire economists who convinced Congress to promulgate the
> Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 assured us that deregulation would result
> neither in increased concentration nor in destructive competition. This
> was true, they insisted, because the industry was structurally competitive,
> possessed few economies of scale, and was impeded by few barriers to
> entry. This book compares those predictions and assurances with the
> unfortunate results of deregulation." (go back to list of quotes above)

very interesting


btw have you seen the engine that the wright brothers built by hand to
power that plane?
quite a very nice piece of fine machinery, for 1903 it surprised
me. few people today could design and build
it in a machine shop



Phil scott

Stray Dog[_2_]
March 15th 09, 04:29 AM
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009, phil scott wrote:

> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:11:31 -0700 (PDT)
> From: phil scott >
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, sci.econ, alt.politics.economics,
> misc.invest.stocks
> Subject: Re: The Failure of Airline Deregulation
>
> On Mar 14, 3:52*pm, Stray Dog > wrote:
>> Airline deregulation is a failure. Here are quotes from a book (1992):
>>
>> ******** quotes ***************
>>
>> Under deregulation, the airline industry lost all of the money it made
>> since the Wright Brothers' inaugural flight at Kitty Hawk in 1903, and
>> $1.5 bil more.
>>
>> After more than 200 bankruptcies and 50 mergers, we now fly the oldest
>> and most repainted fleet of aircraft in the developed world.
>>
>> Of the 176 airlines to which deregulation gave birth, only one remains
>> and, as of 1992, it too was in bankruptcy.
>>
>> In 1991, fully 30 percent of the nations fleet capacity was in bankruptcy
>> or close *to it.
>>
>> All the US airlines together are now worth less than Japan Airlines
>> individually.
>>
>> Despite predictions to the contrary, deregulation has produced the highest
>> level of national and regional concentration in history.
>>
>> Although more people are flying than ever before, the percentage increase
>> in domestic airline passenger boardings was lower during the first decade
>> of deregulation than in every decade that preceded it.
>>
>> While most passengers now fly on a discounted ticker, the full fare has
>> risen sharply under deregulation, far exceeding the rate of inflation, and
>> the discounts are now encumbered with onerous prepurchase,
>> nonrefundability and Saturday-night stayover restrictions. today's airline
>> ticket is therefore an inferior product compared to ints counterpart under
>> regulation, which provided passengers with considerable flexibility.
>>
>> Despite allegations to the contrary, average real fuel-adjusted ticket
>> prices are higher than they would have been had the pre-deregulation trend
>> continued. Pricing has not only increased above pre-deregulation trend
>> levels, it has grown monstrously discriminatory.
>>
>> Industry costs increased sharply under deregulation, while the long-term
>> trend in productivity improvements fell flat.
>>
>> Hubbing-and-spoking, the dominant magatrend on the deregulation landscape,
>> has caused some air travel to regress back to the DC-3 era, robbing
>> aviation of its inherend advantage and people's most precious
>> commodity--time.
>>
>> Business travelers lose billions of dollars in productivity as a result of
>> circuitous and time-consuming hub-and-spoke operations.
>>
>> Service has declined under deregulation, while consumer fraud has
>> increased.
>>
>> Although fatality statistics do not reflect it, the margin of safety has
>> also declined.
>>
>> Labor-management relations have deteriorated.
>>
>> Americans now rate airlines as the industry in which they have the least
>> confidence.
>>
>> *********** end of quotes **********
>>
>> The above are copied from page xiv of the preface of the book:
>>
>> "Airline Deregulation And Laissez-Faire Mythology" by Paul Stephen Dempsey
>> and Andrew R. Goetz (c 1992, Quorum Press, 372 pp, incl. index).
>>
>> And, what is the overview? Here it is from page xiii of the preface:
>>
>> Quote:
>>
>> "Beginning in the Carter administration, and reaching its zenith in the
>> Reagan administrtion, federal oversight of industries as diverse as
>> airlines, buses, railroads, trucking, telephones, cable television, radio
>> and television broadcasting, banking, savings and loans, and oil and gas
>> was significantly trashed. The transformation and radical shrinking of
>> government proceeded along two, sometimes independent planes. Congress
>> passed major legislation mandating various forms of deregulation between
>> 1976 and 1985, while successive presidents appointed free market
>> theologians to the regulatory agencies with the mission to exceed their
>> legislative mandate and ignore their oaths of office.
>>
>> The laissez-faire economists who convinced Congress to promulgate the
>> Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 assured us that deregulation would result
>> neither in increased concentration nor in destructive competition. This
>> was true, they insisted, because the industry was structurally competitive,
>> possessed few economies of scale, and was impeded by few barriers to
>> entry. This book compares those predictions and assurances with the
>> unfortunate results of deregulation." (go back to list of quotes above)
>
> very interesting

yeah, I should have quoted a little more from the preface. Here are the
last two sentences:

"We crawled out from under rocks to write this book because the story
needs to be told: The Emperor has no clothes. Deregulation is a failure."

The authors mentioned a book/report from a conference that is widely
quoted and says deregulation is a success, but they looked all the people
and they never invited anyone with any views or data that questioned the
premise being studied. See, kangaroo courts. You can get any conclusion
you want by cherry-picking the information.

Like I've said, I've read enough economics books now that I can say with
confidence that there are the following types: i) the ones that think they
are gods, ii) the ones that say that they are right and the other guys are
wrong, and iii) a few honest ones that admit, in their writing, that
economists still don't know very much, and one guy who is an economist and
says economics has major problems.

> btw have you seen the engine that the wright brothers built by hand to
> power that plane?

I think I did. At the Kitty Hawk museum. One of my most recently read
economic history books spent quite a bit of time on technical
developments. Amazing what they did in the 1800s.

And, just think about sailing across an ocean 500 years ago. And, all they
could tell was latitude with any accuracy. And, nothing but sails and some
wind.

One more amazing thing. Astronomical telescopes from 100-200+ years ago.
They did not know how to grind lenses. So, what did they do? The kept
grinding by hand until they got the sharpest image! Looked at stars at
night to see how sharp they looked, took the lens out of the scope and did
some grinding, and put it back into the scope and looked to see if the
star got sharper or blurrier, then out and grind one way or the other.
Real workaholics those guys. Sometime, maybe around early 1900s (?) they
figured out the mathematics of optics, and of lens grinding.

> quite a very nice piece of fine machinery, for 1903 it surprised
> me. few people today could design and build
> it in a machine shop

Its really amazing what people did, long ago, and with almost nothing.

Hardly anyone realizes what went into instrumentation. Everyone takes this
stuff for granted.



> Phil scott

Rod Speed
March 15th 09, 05:42 AM
Stray Dog wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2009, phil scott wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:11:31 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: phil scott >
>> Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, sci.econ,
>> alt.politics.economics, misc.invest.stocks
>> Subject: Re: The Failure of Airline Deregulation
>>
>> On Mar 14, 3:52 pm, Stray Dog > wrote:
>>> Airline deregulation is a failure. Here are quotes from a book
>>> (1992):
>>>
>>> ******** quotes ***************
>>>
>>> Under deregulation, the airline industry lost all of the money it
>>> made since the Wright Brothers' inaugural flight at Kitty Hawk in
>>> 1903, and $1.5 bil more.
>>>
>>> After more than 200 bankruptcies and 50 mergers, we now fly the
>>> oldest
>>> and most repainted fleet of aircraft in the developed world.
>>>
>>> Of the 176 airlines to which deregulation gave birth, only one
>>> remains and, as of 1992, it too was in bankruptcy.
>>>
>>> In 1991, fully 30 percent of the nations fleet capacity was in
>>> bankruptcy or close to it.
>>>
>>> All the US airlines together are now worth less than Japan Airlines
>>> individually.
>>>
>>> Despite predictions to the contrary, deregulation has produced the
>>> highest level of national and regional concentration in history.
>>>
>>> Although more people are flying than ever before, the percentage
>>> increase in domestic airline passenger boardings was lower during
>>> the first decade of deregulation than in every decade that preceded
>>> it.
>>>
>>> While most passengers now fly on a discounted ticker, the full fare
>>> has risen sharply under deregulation, far exceeding the rate of
>>> inflation, and the discounts are now encumbered with onerous
>>> prepurchase, nonrefundability and Saturday-night stayover
>>> restrictions. today's airline ticket is therefore an inferior
>>> product compared to ints counterpart under regulation, which
>>> provided passengers with considerable flexibility.
>>>
>>> Despite allegations to the contrary, average real fuel-adjusted
>>> ticket prices are higher than they would have been had the
>>> pre-deregulation trend continued. Pricing has not only increased
>>> above pre-deregulation trend levels, it has grown monstrously
>>> discriminatory.
>>>
>>> Industry costs increased sharply under deregulation, while the
>>> long-term trend in productivity improvements fell flat.
>>>
>>> Hubbing-and-spoking, the dominant magatrend on the deregulation
>>> landscape, has caused some air travel to regress back to the DC-3
>>> era, robbing aviation of its inherend advantage and people's most
>>> precious commodity--time.
>>>
>>> Business travelers lose billions of dollars in productivity as a
>>> result of circuitous and time-consuming hub-and-spoke operations.
>>>
>>> Service has declined under deregulation, while consumer fraud has
>>> increased.
>>>
>>> Although fatality statistics do not reflect it, the margin of
>>> safety has also declined.
>>>
>>> Labor-management relations have deteriorated.
>>>
>>> Americans now rate airlines as the industry in which they have the
>>> least confidence.
>>>
>>> *********** end of quotes **********
>>>
>>> The above are copied from page xiv of the preface of the book:
>>>
>>> "Airline Deregulation And Laissez-Faire Mythology" by Paul Stephen
>>> Dempsey and Andrew R. Goetz (c 1992, Quorum Press, 372 pp, incl.
>>> index).
>>>
>>> And, what is the overview? Here it is from page xiii of the preface:
>>>
>>> Quote:
>>>
>>> "Beginning in the Carter administration, and reaching its zenith in
>>> the Reagan administrtion, federal oversight of industries as
>>> diverse as airlines, buses, railroads, trucking, telephones, cable
>>> television, radio and television broadcasting, banking, savings and
>>> loans, and oil and gas was significantly trashed. The
>>> transformation and radical shrinking of government proceeded along
>>> two, sometimes independent planes. Congress passed major
>>> legislation mandating various forms of deregulation between 1976
>>> and 1985, while successive presidents appointed free market
>>> theologians to the regulatory agencies with the mission to exceed
>>> their legislative mandate and ignore their oaths of office.
>>>
>>> The laissez-faire economists who convinced Congress to promulgate
>>> the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 assured us that deregulation
>>> would result neither in increased concentration nor in destructive
>>> competition. This was true, they insisted, because the industry was
>>> structurally competitive, possessed few economies of scale, and was
>>> impeded by few barriers to entry. This book compares those
>>> predictions and assurances with the unfortunate results of
>>> deregulation." (go back to list of quotes above)
>>
>> very interesting
>
> yeah, I should have quoted a little more from the preface. Here are
> the last two sentences:
>
> "We crawled out from under rocks to write this book because the story
> needs to be told: The Emperor has no clothes. Deregulation is a
> failure."
>
> The authors mentioned a book/report from a conference that is widely
> quoted and says deregulation is a success, but they looked all the
> people and they never invited anyone with any views or data that
> questioned the premise being studied. See, kangaroo courts. You can
> get any conclusion you want by cherry-picking the information.
>
> Like I've said, I've read enough economics books now that I can say
> with confidence that there are the following types: i) the ones that
> think they are gods, ii) the ones that say that they are right and
> the other guys are wrong, and iii) a few honest ones that admit, in
> their writing, that economists still don't know very much, and one
> guy who is an economist and says economics has major problems.
>
>> btw have you seen the engine that the wright brothers built by hand
>> to power that plane?
>
> I think I did. At the Kitty Hawk museum. One of my most recently read
> economic history books spent quite a bit of time on technical
> developments. Amazing what they did in the 1800s.
>
> And, just think about sailing across an ocean 500 years ago.
> And, all they could tell was latitude with any accuracy.

Pacific islanders didnt even have that and managed to get to New Zealand fine.

> And, nothing but sails and some wind.

They did have a boat as well.

> One more amazing thing. Astronomical telescopes from 100-200+ years
> ago. They did not know how to grind lenses. So, what did they do? The
> kept grinding by hand until they got the sharpest image! Looked at
> stars at night to see how sharp they looked, took the lens out of the
> scope and did some grinding, and put it back into the scope and
> looked to see if the star got sharper or blurrier, then out and grind
> one way or the other. Real workaholics those guys. Sometime, maybe
> around early 1900s (?) they figured out the mathematics of optics,
> and of lens grinding.
>
>> quite a very nice piece of fine machinery, for 1903 it surprised
>> me. few people today could design and build
>> it in a machine shop
>
> Its really amazing what people did, long ago, and with almost nothing.
>
> Hardly anyone realizes what went into instrumentation. Everyone takes
> this stuff for granted.

Michael Price
March 15th 09, 07:05 AM
On Mar 15, 11:00*am, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
> Stray Dog wrote:
> > Airline deregulation is a failure.
>
> Like hell it is. Its delivered much cheaper travel.
>
Agreed, but that assumes that the author wanted cheaper travel, that
delivering a product
that was actually wanted for the price was a success.

> > Here are quotes from a book (1992):
>
> Just because some damned book claims it doesnt make it gospel.
>
> > ******** quotes ***************
> > Under deregulation, the airline industry lost all of the money it made since the Wright Brothers' inaugural flight at
> > Kitty Hawk in 1903, and $1.5 bil more.
>
> Pig ignorant lie. And what matters is what the travelling public
> got cost of travel wise, not what profit the industry made anyway.
>
The losses were indeed bigger than all the profits that the airline
industry ever
earned. Think about what that means, Rod. It means that overall
people would rather that
no resources were put into air travel ever. Every dollar put into
flying people around would have
been better spent doing something else, on average.

> > After more than 200 bankruptcies and 50 mergers, we now fly the oldest and most repainted fleet
> > of aircraft in the developed world.
>
> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Have a look at who buys new aircraft, stupid.
>
> > Of the 176 airlines to which deregulation gave birth, only one remains and, as of 1992, it too was in bankruptcy.
>
> Dinosaurs cant work out how to operate with no regulation ?
>
> They go bust, as they should.
>
I think he's saying that it's the new ones that went bust. Well it
sucks to be them but how does
that mean deregulation failed? Unless of course the aim of
deregulation was or should have been
to create profit for venture capitalists. I don't see why that's
neccesary, since the good ones
can create profits for themselves.

> > In 1991, fully 30 percent of the nations fleet capacity was in
> > bankruptcy or close *to it.
>
> Dinosaurs cant work out how to operate with no regulation ?
>
> They go bust, as they should.
>
It's good news for people who want to start up a new line, all those
cheap planes.

> > All the US airlines together are now worth less than Japan Airlines individually.
>
> Who cares ? *What matters is what has happened to the cost of travel.
>
> > Despite predictions to the contrary, deregulation has produced the highest level of national and regional
> > concentration in history.
>
> Another pig ignorant lie.

I doubt it is, but who cares? Why should I care what the level of
concentration is? I care what the level of fares are though.
>
> > Although more people are flying than ever before,
>
> Thats what matters, stupid.
>
> AND there is the tiny matter that the crash rate is lower than ever before too.
>
> > the percentage increase in domestic airline passenger boardings was lower during the first
> > decade of deregulation than in every decade that preceded it.
>
Remind me, what happened to oil prices at the time?

> What matters is the number who travel and the price they pay to do that, fool.
>
> > While most passengers now fly on a discounted ticker,
>
> Funny that.
>
> > the full fare has risen sharply under deregulation,
>
> Irrelevant when no one except the stupid pays full price.
>
> > far exceeding the rate of inflation,
>
> Even more irrelevant when no one except the stupid pays full price.
>
> > and the discounts are now encumbered with onerous prepurchase, nonrefundability and Saturday-night stayover
> > restrictions.
>
> Those paying for the ticket clearly dont care enough about it to pay full price, fool.
>
> > today's airline ticket is therefore an inferior product
> > compared to ints counterpart under regulation,

People want the inferior product though, because it's cheaper.

> > which provided passengers with considerable flexibility.
>
> Pity about the much higher price. You're always welcome to continue
> to pay a much higher price for that if you are actually that stupid.
>
> > Despite allegations to the contrary, average real fuel-adjusted ticket prices are higher than they
> > would have been had the pre-deregulation trend continued.
>
> Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.
>
It's also kinda speculative, who said the trend would continue?

> > Pricing has not only increased above pre-deregulation trend levels, it has grown monstrously
> > discriminatory.
>
> It aint disciminatory when you are welcome to pay full price if you are that stupid.
>
> In fact you didnt get that choice pre deregulation, fool.
>
> > Industry costs increased sharply under deregulation, while the long-term trend in productivity
> > improvements fell flat.
>
> You're lying now. Most obviously with the number of empty seats.
>
> > Hubbing-and-spoking, the dominant magatrend on the deregulation
> > landscape, has caused some air travel to regress back to the DC-3 era,
>
> Lying, again. Its nothing like the DC3 era.
>
> > robbing aviation of its inherend advantage and people's most precious commodity--time.
>
> How odd that they continue to fly in vastly more numbers than they used to, fool.
>
> > Business travelers lose billions of dollars in productivity as a
> > result of circuitous and time-consuming hub-and-spoke operations.
>
> They're always welcome to pay full fare and fly direct, fool.
>
> > Service has declined under deregulation,
>
> Because hardly anyone wants to pay for that, fool.
>
> > while consumer fraud has increased.
>
> Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.
>
> > Although fatality statistics do not reflect it, the margin of safety has also declined.
>
> Lying, again.
>
> > Labor-management relations have deteriorated.
>
> Who cares ?
>
> > Americans now rate airlines as the industry in which they have the least confidence.
>
> You're lying, again.
>
> > *********** end of quotes **********
> > The above are copied from page xiv of the preface of the book:
> > "Airline Deregulation And Laissez-Faire Mythology" by Paul Stephen Dempsey and Andrew R. Goetz (c 1992, Quorum Press,
> > 372 pp, incl. index).
>
> Just another steaming turd written by fools that dont have a ****ing clue..
>
> > And, what is the overview? Here it is from page xiii of the preface:
> > Quote:
> > "Beginning in the Carter administration, and reaching its zenith in the Reagan administrtion, federal oversight of
> > industries as diverse as airlines, buses, railroads, trucking, telephones, cable television, radio and television
> > broadcasting, banking, savings and loans, and oil and gas was significantly trashed.
>
> Like that or lump it.
>
> > The transformation and radical shrinking of government proceeded along two, sometimes independent planes. Congress
> > passed major legislation mandating various forms of deregulation between 1976 and 1985, while successive presidents
> > appointed free market theologians to the regulatory agencies with the mission to exceed their legislative mandate and
> > ignore their oaths of office.
>
> And the voters clearly didnt care enough about that to give them the bums rush at the ballot box.
>
> You get to like that or lump it.
>
> > The laissez-faire economists who convinced Congress to promulgate the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 assured us that
> > deregulation would result neither in increased concentration
>
> It didnt.
>
> > nor in destructive competition. This was true, they insisted, because the industry was structurally competitive,
> > possessed few economies of scale, and was impeded by few barriers to entry.
>
> And they were right about all of those.
>
> > This book compares those predictions and assurances with the unfortunate results of deregulation." (go back to list of
> > quotes above)
>
> Pity they just ignore what matters, the number who travel, the
> cost of that travel, and the dramatic improvement in the crash rate.
>
> Corse any cushy protected industry will be worse for the participants than a deregulated one.

Rod Speed
March 15th 09, 08:21 AM
Michael Price wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> Stray Dog wrote

>>> Airline deregulation is a failure.

>> Like hell it is. Its delivered much cheaper travel.

> Agreed, but that assumes that the author wanted cheaper travel,

What the author wanted is completely irrelevant.

What matters is that airline deregulation was NOT a failure when
it delivered much cheaper travel, hordes more flying, and did that
with the crash rate dropping quite significantly at the same time.

> that delivering a product that was actually wanted for the price was a success.

Corse it was wanted by anyone with a clue.

>>> Here are quotes from a book (1992):

>> Just because some damned book claims it doesnt make it gospel.
>>
>>> ******** quotes ***************

>>> Under deregulation, the airline industry lost all of the money it
>>> made since the Wright Brothers' inaugural flight at Kitty Hawk in
>>> 1903, and $1.5 bil more.

>> Pig ignorant lie. And what matters is what the travelling public
>> got cost of travel wise, not what profit the industry made anyway.

> The losses were indeed bigger than all the profits that the airline industry ever earned.

Wrong, as always.

> Think about what that means, Rod. It means that overall people
> would rather that no resources were put into air travel ever.

Like hell it does. It actually means that what they care about is the cost of travel.

They dont give a flying red **** whether the industry makes a profit or not.

> Every dollar put into flying people around would have
> been better spent doing something else, on average.

Mindlessly silly. Those who flew clearly dont agree with that.

>>> After more than 200 bankruptcies and 50 mergers, we now fly the
>>> oldest and most repainted fleet of aircraft in the developed world.

>> Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. Have a look at who buys new aircraft, stupid.

>>> Of the 176 airlines to which deregulation gave birth, only one
>>> remains and, as of 1992, it too was in bankruptcy.

>> Dinosaurs cant work out how to operate with no regulation ?

>> They go bust, as they should.

> I think he's saying that it's the new ones that went bust.

No he isnt. The ones that operated under regulation ALL went bust.

> Well it sucks to be them but how does that mean deregulation failed?

Corse it doesnt.

> Unless of course the aim of deregulation was or should have been
> to create profit for venture capitalists. I don't see why that's
> neccesary, since the good ones can create profits for themselves.

Doesnt even matter if they do make a profit, there's clearly
enough prepared to attempt that to provide a viable industry.

>>> In 1991, fully 30 percent of the nations fleet capacity was in bankruptcy or close to it.

>> Dinosaurs cant work out how to operate with no regulation ?

>> They go bust, as they should.

> It's good news for people who want to start up a new line, all those cheap planes.

Yep, and all those monkeys who need to accept reasonable wages to fly them too.

>>> All the US airlines together are now worth less than Japan Airlines individually.

>> Who cares ? What matters is what has happened to the cost of travel.

>>> Despite predictions to the contrary, deregulation has produced
>>> the highest level of national and regional concentration in history.

>> Another pig ignorant lie.

> I doubt it is,

Doesnt matter what you doubt, its a lie anyway.

> but who cares? Why should I care what the level of
> concentration is? I care what the level of fares are though.

And that is clearly fine whatever the level of concentration is.

>>> Although more people are flying than ever before,

>> Thats what matters, stupid.

>> AND there is the tiny matter that the crash rate is lower than ever before too.

>>> the percentage increase in domestic airline passenger boardings was lower
>>> during the first decade of deregulation than in every decade that preceded it.

> Remind me, what happened to oil prices at the time?

>> What matters is the number who travel and the price they pay to do that, fool.

>>> While most passengers now fly on a discounted ticker,

>> Funny that.

>>> the full fare has risen sharply under deregulation,

>> Irrelevant when no one except the stupid pays full price.

>>> far exceeding the rate of inflation,

>> Even more irrelevant when no one except the stupid pays full price.

>>> and the discounts are now encumbered with onerous prepurchase,
>>> nonrefundability and Saturday-night stayover restrictions.

>> Those paying for the ticket clearly dont care enough about it to pay full price, fool.

>>> today's airline ticket is therefore an inferior product
>>> compared to ints counterpart under regulation,

> People want the inferior product though, because it's cheaper.

>>> which provided passengers with considerable flexibility.

>> Pity about the much higher price. You're always welcome to continue
>> to pay a much higher price for that if you are actually that stupid.

>>> Despite allegations to the contrary, average real fuel-adjusted
>>> ticket prices are higher than they
>>> would have been had the pre-deregulation trend continued.

>> Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> It's also kinda speculative, who said the trend would continue?

>>> Pricing has not only increased above pre-deregulation
>>> trend levels, it has grown monstrously discriminatory.

>> It aint disciminatory when you are welcome to pay full price if you are that stupid.

>> In fact you didnt get that choice pre deregulation, fool.

>>> Industry costs increased sharply under deregulation, while
>>> the long-term trend in productivity improvements fell flat.

>> You're lying now. Most obviously with the number of empty seats.

>>> Hubbing-and-spoking, the dominant magatrend on the deregulation
>>> landscape, has caused some air travel to regress back to the DC-3 era,

>> Lying, again. Its nothing like the DC3 era.

>>> robbing aviation of its inherend advantage and people's most precious commodity--time.

>> How odd that they continue to fly in vastly more numbers than they used to, fool.

>>> Business travelers lose billions of dollars in productivity as a
>>> result of circuitous and time-consuming hub-and-spoke operations.

>> They're always welcome to pay full fare and fly direct, fool.

>>> Service has declined under deregulation,

>> Because hardly anyone wants to pay for that, fool.

>>> while consumer fraud has increased.

>> Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

>>> Although fatality statistics do not reflect it, the margin of safety has also declined.

>> Lying, again.

>>> Labor-management relations have deteriorated.

>> Who cares ?

>>> Americans now rate airlines as the industry in which they have the least confidence.

>> You're lying, again.

>>> *********** end of quotes **********
>>> The above are copied from page xiv of the preface of the book:
>>> "Airline Deregulation And Laissez-Faire Mythology" by Paul Stephen
>>> Dempsey and Andrew R. Goetz (c 1992, Quorum Press, 372 pp, incl. index).

>> Just another steaming turd written by fools that dont have a ****ing clue.

>>> And, what is the overview? Here it is from page xiii of the preface:
>>> Quote: "Beginning in the Carter administration, and reaching its zenith
>>> in the Reagan administrtion, federal oversight of industries as
>>> diverse as airlines, buses, railroads, trucking, telephones, cable
>>> television, radio and television broadcasting, banking, savings and
>>> loans, and oil and gas was significantly trashed.

>> Like that or lump it.

>>> The transformation and radical shrinking of government proceeded
>>> along two, sometimes independent planes. Congress passed major
>>> legislation mandating various forms of deregulation between 1976
>>> and 1985, while successive presidents appointed free market
>>> theologians to the regulatory agencies with the mission to exceed
>>> their legislative mandate and ignore their oaths of office.

>> And the voters clearly didnt care enough about that to give them the
>> bums rush at the ballot box.

>> You get to like that or lump it.

>>> The laissez-faire economists who convinced Congress to promulgate
>>> the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 assured us that deregulation
>>> would result neither in increased concentration

>> It didnt.

>>> nor in destructive competition. This was true, they insisted,
>>> because the industry was structurally competitive, possessed few
>>> economies of scale, and was impeded by few barriers to entry.

>> And they were right about all of those.

>>> This book compares those predictions and assurances with the
>>> unfortunate results of deregulation." (go back to list of quotes above)

>> Pity they just ignore what matters, the number who travel, the
>> cost of that travel, and the dramatic improvement in the crash rate.

>> Corse any cushy protected industry will be worse for the participants than a deregulated one.

Old Pif
March 15th 09, 01:47 PM
On Mar 15, 12:29*am, Stray Dog > wrote:

>
> yeah, I should have quoted a little more from the preface. Here are the
> last two sentences:
>
> "We crawled out from under rocks to write this book because the story
> needs to be *told: The Emperor has no clothes. Deregulation is a failure."
>

This statement admits multiple interpretations. There is business
point of view and not even one and there is customer point of view.
So, when they say 'failure' which point of view they have in mind -
customer or that airline which has been bankrupt or that one that
survived?

Basically, what happens universally when regulations are removed is
that the sector of economy is on so called "free market" path which
essentially is a road to depression through the chain of
cannibalization. Of which the Airline industry is a very good example.
What they have achieved so far is absolutely minimal service for the
maximal fee. They have eliminated meals and some believe it or not
start charging for the usage of toilets:

http://rackjite.com/archives/2949-Olbermanns-Worst-RyanAir,-CEO-Michael-OLeary-of-Pay-Toilet-Airlines.html

It is only one step from charging you separately for landing and take
off. Like, say, if you have purchased only take off they drop you to
the ground as a sack of potatoes.

So, for some it is really a success.

Stray Dog[_2_]
March 15th 09, 05:52 PM
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009, Old Pif wrote:

> Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 06:47:27 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Old Pif >
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.consultants, sci.econ, alt.politics.economics,
> misc.invest.stocks
> Subject: Re: The Failure of Airline Deregulation
>
> On Mar 15, 12:29*am, Stray Dog > wrote:
>
>>
>> yeah, I should have quoted a little more from the preface. Here are the
>> last two sentences:
>>
>> "We crawled out from under rocks to write this book because the story
>> needs to be *told: The Emperor has no clothes. Deregulation is a failure."
>>
>
> This statement admits multiple interpretations. There is business
> point of view and not even one and there is customer point of view.
> So, when they say 'failure' which point of view they have in mind -
> customer or that airline which has been bankrupt or that one that
> survived?

The items they felt were important were the effect on the _business_ and
that was in the list they made. Here, I post it again, and please noted
that most of the items were related to the health of the business:

=============== repost of file=============
Subject: The Failure of Airline Deregulation

Airline deregulation is a failure. Here are quotes from a book (1992):

******** quotes ***************

Under deregulation, the airline industry lost all of the money it made since
the Wright Brothers' inaugural flight at Kitty Hawk in 1903, and $1.5 bil
more.

After more than 200 bankruptcies and 50 mergers, we now fly the oldest and
most repainted fleet of aircraft in the developed world.

Of the 176 airlines to which deregulation gave birth, only one remains and,
as of 1992, it too was in bankruptcy.

In 1991, fully 30 percent of the nations fleet capacity was in bankruptcy or
close to it.

All the US airlines together are now worth less than Japan Airlines
individually.

Despite predictions to the contrary, deregulation has produced the highest
level of national and regional concentration in history.

Although more people are flying than ever before, the percentage increase in
domestic airline passenger boardings was lower during the first decade of
deregulation than in every decade that preceded it.

While most passengers now fly on a discounted ticker, the full fare has
risen sharply under deregulation, far exceeding the rate of inflation, and
the discounts are now encumbered with onerous prepurchase, nonrefundability
and Saturday-night stayover restrictions. today's airline ticket is
therefore an inferior product compared to ints counterpart under regulation,
which provided passengers with considerable flexibility.

Despite allegations to the contrary, average real fuel-adjusted ticket
prices are higher than they would have been had the pre-deregulation trend
continued. Pricing has not only increased above pre-deregulation trend
levels, it has grown monstrously discriminatory.

Industry costs increased sharply under deregulation, while the long-term
trend in productivity improvements fell flat.

Hubbing-and-spoking, the dominant magatrend on the deregulation landscape,
has caused some air travel to regress back to the DC-3 era, robbing aviation
of its inherent advantage and people's most precious commodity--time.

Business travelers lose billions of dollars in productivity as a result of
circuitous and time-consuming hub-and-spoke operations.

Service has declined under deregulation, while consumer fraud has increased.

Although fatality statistics do not reflect it, the margin of safety has
also declined.

Labor-management relations have deteriorated.

Americans now rate airlines as the industry in which they have the least
confidence.

*********** end of quotes **********

The above are copied from page xiv of the preface of the book:

"Airline Deregulation And Laissez-Faire Mythology" by Paul Stephen Dempsey
and Andrew R. Goetz (c 1992, Quorum Press, 372 pp, incl. index).

And, what is the overview? Here it is from page xiii of the preface:

Quote:

"Beginning in the Carter administration, and reaching its zenith in the
Reagan administrtion, federal oversight of industries as diverse as
airlines, buses, railroads, trucking, telephones, cable television, radio
and television broadcasting, banking, savings and loans, and oil and gas was
significantly trashed. The transformation and radical shrinking of
government proceeded along two, sometimes independent planes. Congress
passed major legislation mandating various forms of deregulation between
1976 and 1985, while successive presidents appointed free market theologians
to the regulatory agencies with the mission to exceed their legislative
mandate and ignore their oaths of office.

The laissez-faire economists who convinced Congress to promulgate the
Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 assured us that deregulation would result
neither in increased concentration nor in destructive competition. This was
true, they insisted, because the industry was structurally competitive,
possessed few economies of scale, and was impeded by few barriers to entry.
This book compares those predictions and assurances with the unfortunate
results of deregulation." (go back to list of quotes above)

============== end of file =============

> Basically, what happens universally when regulations are removed is
> that the sector of economy is on so called "free market" path which
> essentially is a road to depression through the chain of
> cannibalization. Of which the Airline industry is a very good example.
> What they have achieved so far is absolutely minimal service for the
> maximal fee. They have eliminated meals and some believe it or not
> start charging for the usage of toilets:
>
> http://rackjite.com/archives/2949-Olbermanns-Worst-RyanAir,-CEO-Michael-OLeary-of-Pay-Toilet-Airlines.html
>
> It is only one step from charging you separately for landing and take
> off. Like, say, if you have purchased only take off they drop you to
> the ground as a sack of potatoes.
>
> So, for some it is really a success.

I do not study these things in great detail and only notice casually what
comes up in WSJ overview articles. The airlines are not doing well,
service is worse today, flights are packed, people are getting bumped by
overbooking, and more indications of cheating on maintenance are there,
fuel prices last year at their peaks were killing most of them, and
employee wages were also strained. The book was full of charts,
references, and discussions of the problem of how the whole industry is
worse off now than before deregulation, and the emphasis was on
"destructive competition" which I take it is something _not_ good for
capitalism.

The authors are professors and not left-wing-commie-pinko-hippie-freaks,
but they had an opinion that went against the "grain" of the
pro-free-marketers and there are a lot of smart/knowledgeable people out
there who are questioning this. I can remember we had plenty of reliable
electricity, telephone service, etc., all under PSC regulation and banks
didn't screw up like the S&L crisis back in late 1980s, and it was all
still "mostly" capitalism and I was OK with that.

Look at the banks now, I see new price schedules coming out every few
months for increased fees, fees on stuff you used to get for free, and
some of my banks are now selling insurance, discount coupons, financial
instruments, and other stuff having nothing to do with bank business.

Yes, someday soon, you will have to pay a "cover charge" to walk _into_ a
bank, and maybe an "exit fee" to get out, and maybe an "access ticket" so
if you want faster service, you pay the higher price for a shorter wait
time. More fees if you want to talk in english english than, say,
Indian-english? A coinbox at the drinking fountain?

At the post office they ask me if I need all kinds of things and I ask
back, when will you offer coffee and doughnuts?

Who i$ John Galt
March 16th 09, 01:34 AM
Rod Speed wrote:
> Stray Dog wrote:
>
>> Airline deregulation is a failure.
>
> Like hell it is. Its delivered much cheaper travel.


How could it be deregulated when they even limit the amount of shampoo
you can carry onto the plane, it still regulated from top to bottom.

BobR
March 16th 09, 02:30 AM
On Mar 15, 8:34*pm, "Who i$ John Galt" <"Men of the Mind"@Talk-n-
Dog..com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
> > Stray Dog wrote:
>
> >> Airline deregulation is a failure.
>
> > Like hell it is. Its delivered much cheaper travel.
>
> How could it be deregulated when they even limit the amount of shampoo
> you can carry onto the plane, it still regulated from top to bottom.

The amount of shampoo you can carry on isn't so much regulation of the
airline as it is paranoia and regulation of the passengers. The truth
though is that the airlines are still regulated, they are just not
regulated monopolies any longer.