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View Full Version : Re: Unsettled cash with Ameritrade


Blu Cava
July 10th 03, 03:20 AM
"fast" > wrote in message
om...
> I sold some shares on monday. On tuesday, I wanted to place an
> order with my proceeds but found I had no cash available for
> trading. The customer service representative said that the
> settlement period for stock trades is 3 days. This is news to me!
> I have had no problems doing the same thing in the past, and in
> fact I sold some other shares last night and the proceeds were
> immediately available for trading. Yet the proceeds from monday's
> trade are at present still reflected as unsettled cash. Can anyone
> give some insight into this annoyance?

If you have a "CASH ONLY" account with ameritrade, without margin, they
reserve the right to hold the funds until the trade is settled. If you have
margin available, they usually don't follow this policy.. but there may be
exceptions. Now I had an account with Ameritrade.. their order executions
sucked big time.. They claim that 10 Second execution guarantee.. but they
wait don't send your order individually, but accumulate a lot of orders, and
place them at whatever the price is at that time... I left Ameritrade, cuz I
had placed a stop order for 350 shares. Stop order was at 42.12, I believe,
and it got executed at 42.41.. YEAH.. I KNOW! It told me that it got
executed at a specified time.. with confirmation.. I look at Level 2 quotes
from 3 different sources. There was absolutely no order within 20 minutes
that matched BUY 350 shares.. I called them.. they said.. well we send the
order for everyone that wanted to buy that stock as a bulk.. so it actually
got filled at 42.41... sorry for the inconvenience.. I WAS OUTRAGED, so the
next day, I was done with Ameritrade...

Anyways, they do have a weird way of doing business to say the least..

Blu Cava
http://www.blucava.com/

>

Rich.
July 10th 03, 04:19 AM
"fast" > wrote in message
om...
> I sold some shares on monday. On tuesday, I wanted to place an
> order with my proceeds but found I had no cash available for
> trading. The customer service representative said that the
> settlement period for stock trades is 3 days. This is news to me!
> I have had no problems doing the same thing in the past, and in
> fact I sold some other shares last night and the proceeds were
> immediately available for trading. Yet the proceeds from monday's
> trade are at present still reflected as unsettled cash. Can anyone
> give some insight into this annoyance?

Log into your account and click the "Account Services" tab at the top. Now
go to the column on the right and down to the last section titled
"Handbooks/Trading Rules" and click the link under it which reads "Trading
Restrictions in Cash Accounts"

"Under applicable interpretations issued by the staff of the Board of
Governors of the Federal Reserve System, cash account clients are
prohibited from making a practice of selling securities prior to making
full cash payment for their prior purchase. Such payment can be made using
existing cash in the account, the proceeds of settled sales of fully-paid
for securities, and additional cash deposits. Sale proceeds where the
purchase has not yet settled may not be used before settlement of such
sale."

--
Rich

Growing old is mandatory.
Growing up is optional.

Rich.
July 10th 03, 04:20 AM
"fast" > wrote in message
om...
> I sold some shares on monday. On tuesday, I wanted to place an
> order with my proceeds but found I had no cash available for
> trading. The customer service representative said that the
> settlement period for stock trades is 3 days. This is news to me!
> I have had no problems doing the same thing in the past, and in
> fact I sold some other shares last night and the proceeds were
> immediately available for trading. Yet the proceeds from monday's
> trade are at present still reflected as unsettled cash. Can anyone
> give some insight into this annoyance?

Log into your account and click the "Account Services" tab at the top. Now
go to the column on the right and down to the last section titled
"Handbooks/Trading Rules" and click the link under it which reads "Trading
Restrictions in Cash Accounts"

"Under applicable interpretations issued by the staff of the Board of
Governors of the Federal Reserve System, cash account clients are
prohibited from making a practice of selling securities prior to making
full cash payment for their prior purchase. Such payment can be made using
existing cash in the account, the proceeds of settled sales of fully-paid
for securities, and additional cash deposits. Sale proceeds where the
purchase has not yet settled may not be used before settlement of such
sale."

--
Rich

Growing old is mandatory.
Growing up is optional.

ypauls
July 10th 03, 05:51 AM
This is one of the 'non-advertised' changes (you are right, Datek did not
use this practice) that make the small investor unhappy, unfortunately
there is not much one can do about it short of closing the account.

"fast" > wrote in message
om...
> I sold some shares on monday. On tuesday, I wanted to place an
> order with my proceeds but found I had no cash available for
> trading. The customer service representative said that the
> settlement period for stock trades is 3 days. This is news to me!
> I have had no problems doing the same thing in the past, and in
> fact I sold some other shares last night and the proceeds were
> immediately available for trading. Yet the proceeds from monday's
> trade are at present still reflected as unsettled cash. Can anyone
> give some insight into this annoyance?

Dr Tormento
July 10th 03, 12:59 PM
"ypauls" > wrote in :

> unfortunately
> there is not much one can do about it short of closing the account.

Yes there is. Have them open a margin account and use that for trading.
There is no sane reason for opening a cash account in the first place,
unless you have less than the $2000 minimum to open.

Clark Zahn
July 10th 03, 03:21 PM
Dr Tormento wrote:
>
> "ypauls" > wrote in :
>
> > unfortunately
> > there is not much one can do about it short of closing the account.
>
> Yes there is. Have them open a margin account and use that for trading.
> There is no sane reason for opening a cash account in the first place,
> unless you have less than the $2000 minimum to open.

Doesn't the daytrading rule apply only to margin accounts? That would
be a reason to stick to a cash account if you have less than $25K to put
in the account.

--
Clark Zahn
Registered linux user 267087

ypauls
July 10th 03, 03:32 PM
Borrow money (at interest) that is rightfully mine in the first place, wow
what a concept.
Yep, that's sane especially after two years of a correction market...
Ameritrade just keeps getting better

"Dr Tormento" > wrote in message news:

> Yes there is. Have them open a margin account and use that for
trading.
> There is no sane reason for opening a cash account in the first place,
> unless you have less than the $2000 minimum to open.

Blu Cava
July 10th 03, 04:09 PM
"Ingen Reklamer" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
> So where do you guys trade now? What made you choose whomever you are with
> now?
>

I use Interactive Brokers for my personal account. The reason I chose them
is that it was reffered to me by a couple of trustworth friends who use it,
not to mention that comissions are $1 per 100 Shares, up to 500 shares. So
if your average trade is 500 or less, then you will benefit as you will pay
only 5 bucks comission. Second reason I went with them is they offer direct
access... and I can see orders, assuming that I HAVE NYSE open book, and
Nasdaq Level 2 I can see the order being executed.. and they do get executed
pretty fast... But the main reason was comissions.. I was paying ameritrade
at least 600 bucks a month in comissions.. Yes I know noone got rich or poor
from comissions, but why pay for it when I don't have to... Now I pay 1/3 of
that.. IF even that..

Our Business account however is with NobleTrader.com. The reason, well we
use all kinds of tools offered to by them, and it is much much better
trading platform.. but their comissions are kind of steep.. they charge
14.95/trade... so worse than Ameritrade, but sure as hell is worth it..

Hope this helps,
Blu Cava
http://www.blucava.com/

TK Sung
July 10th 03, 05:30 PM
"Ingen Reklamer" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
> So where do you guys trade now? What made you choose whomever you are with
> now?
>
Scottrade, because they don't have spurious fees like Ameritrade. But they
have different commission schedule for penny stocks, so watch out.

Clark Zahn
July 10th 03, 09:37 PM
"Rich." wrote:
>
> "Clark Zahn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Doesn't the daytrading rule apply only to margin accounts? That would
> > be a reason to stick to a cash account if you have less than $25K to put
> > in the account.
> >
> > --
> > Clark Zahn
>
> Yes, the rules only apply to margin accounts. However, with a cash account
> daytrading is also impossible if you use the majority of your funds to
> make a trade, because of the 3 day settlement rule.
>

You can still trade frequently enough that you would get caught by the
daytrading rule if you had a margin account. I trade infrequently, but
I often buy and sell the same day. You don't have to do it very often
to get daytrader status.

--
Clark Zahn
Registered linux user 267087

Johnnie Kendricks
July 11th 03, 02:27 AM
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:30:46 GMT, "TK Sung" > wrote:

>
>"Ingen Reklamer" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
>> So where do you guys trade now? What made you choose whomever you are with
>> now?
>>
>Scottrade, because they don't have spurious fees like Ameritrade. But they
>have different commission schedule for penny stocks, so watch out.

Can you trade OTC:BB stocks with Scottrade with no problem?

Does Scottrade not screw you with the "unsettled cash" policy like
Ameritrade does?

TIA for your advice

Johnnie Kendricks
July 11th 03, 02:27 AM
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:30:46 GMT, "TK Sung" > wrote:

>
>"Ingen Reklamer" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
>> So where do you guys trade now? What made you choose whomever you are with
>> now?
>>
>Scottrade, because they don't have spurious fees like Ameritrade. But they
>have different commission schedule for penny stocks, so watch out.

Can you trade OTC:BB stocks with Scottrade with no problem?

Does Scottrade not screw you with the "unsettled cash" policy like
Ameritrade does?

TIA for your advice

Rich.
July 11th 03, 02:49 AM
"Clark Zahn" > wrote in message
...
>
> You can still trade frequently enough that you would get caught by the
> daytrading rule if you had a margin account. I trade infrequently, but
> I often buy and sell the same day. You don't have to do it very often
> to get daytrader status.

More than 3 daytrades in 5 rolling business days and you're tagged as a
daytrader.

--
Rich

Growing old is mandatory.
Growing up is optional.

Rich.
July 11th 03, 02:49 AM
"Clark Zahn" > wrote in message
...
>
> You can still trade frequently enough that you would get caught by the
> daytrading rule if you had a margin account. I trade infrequently, but
> I often buy and sell the same day. You don't have to do it very often
> to get daytrader status.

More than 3 daytrades in 5 rolling business days and you're tagged as a
daytrader.

--
Rich

Growing old is mandatory.
Growing up is optional.

Michael and Amanda Shenouda
July 11th 03, 05:29 AM
"Rich." > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Clark Zahn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > You can still trade frequently enough that you would get caught by the
> > daytrading rule if you had a margin account. I trade infrequently, but
> > I often buy and sell the same day. You don't have to do it very often
> > to get daytrader status.
>
> More than 3 daytrades in 5 rolling business days and you're tagged as a
> daytrader.
>
> --
> Rich
>
> Growing old is mandatory.
> Growing up is optional.
>

Just for my clarification (or ignorance) daytrading would mean, buy the
stock monday sell the stock monday. correct? so three times you buy one
stock and sell it the sameday within five day, your a daytrader, is that
right? then does that mean the rule doesn't count if you buy the stock
monday and sell tuesday, buy another stock on tuesday sell wednesday. am I
looking at this wrong. it's very confusing, if someone wouldn't mind
explaining how they decide what daytrading is/isn't I'd really appreciate it

TIA
MS

Michael and Amanda Shenouda
July 11th 03, 05:29 AM
"Rich." > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Clark Zahn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > You can still trade frequently enough that you would get caught by the
> > daytrading rule if you had a margin account. I trade infrequently, but
> > I often buy and sell the same day. You don't have to do it very often
> > to get daytrader status.
>
> More than 3 daytrades in 5 rolling business days and you're tagged as a
> daytrader.
>
> --
> Rich
>
> Growing old is mandatory.
> Growing up is optional.
>

Just for my clarification (or ignorance) daytrading would mean, buy the
stock monday sell the stock monday. correct? so three times you buy one
stock and sell it the sameday within five day, your a daytrader, is that
right? then does that mean the rule doesn't count if you buy the stock
monday and sell tuesday, buy another stock on tuesday sell wednesday. am I
looking at this wrong. it's very confusing, if someone wouldn't mind
explaining how they decide what daytrading is/isn't I'd really appreciate it

TIA
MS

Ingen Reklamer
July 11th 03, 07:11 AM
Thanks for the info Blu Cava and TK Sung


"Johnnie Kendricks" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:30:46 GMT, "TK Sung" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ingen Reklamer" > wrote in message
> rthlink.net...
> >> So where do you guys trade now? What made you choose whomever you are
with
> >> now?
> >>
> >Scottrade, because they don't have spurious fees like Ameritrade. But
they
> >have different commission schedule for penny stocks, so watch out.
>
> Can you trade OTC:BB stocks with Scottrade with no problem?
>
> Does Scottrade not screw you with the "unsettled cash" policy like
> Ameritrade does?
>
> TIA for your advice
>
>

Ingen Reklamer
July 11th 03, 07:11 AM
Thanks for the info Blu Cava and TK Sung


"Johnnie Kendricks" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:30:46 GMT, "TK Sung" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ingen Reklamer" > wrote in message
> rthlink.net...
> >> So where do you guys trade now? What made you choose whomever you are
with
> >> now?
> >>
> >Scottrade, because they don't have spurious fees like Ameritrade. But
they
> >have different commission schedule for penny stocks, so watch out.
>
> Can you trade OTC:BB stocks with Scottrade with no problem?
>
> Does Scottrade not screw you with the "unsettled cash" policy like
> Ameritrade does?
>
> TIA for your advice
>
>

Dr Tormento
July 11th 03, 01:21 PM
"ypauls" > wrote in :

> Borrow money (at interest) that is rightfully mine in the first place,
> wow what a concept

What on earth are you talking about??? You don't have to borrow in a
margin account. It's just an option. And what is this "rightfully mine"
business??




..
> Yep, that's sane especially after two years of a correction market...
> Ameritrade just keeps getting better
>
> "Dr Tormento" > wrote in message news:
>
>> Yes there is. Have them open a margin account and use that for
> trading.
>> There is no sane reason for opening a cash account in the first
>> place,
>> unless you have less than the $2000 minimum to open.
>
>
>

Dr Tormento
July 11th 03, 01:21 PM
"ypauls" > wrote in :

> Borrow money (at interest) that is rightfully mine in the first place,
> wow what a concept

What on earth are you talking about??? You don't have to borrow in a
margin account. It's just an option. And what is this "rightfully mine"
business??




..
> Yep, that's sane especially after two years of a correction market...
> Ameritrade just keeps getting better
>
> "Dr Tormento" > wrote in message news:
>
>> Yes there is. Have them open a margin account and use that for
> trading.
>> There is no sane reason for opening a cash account in the first
>> place,
>> unless you have less than the $2000 minimum to open.
>
>
>

Dr Tormento
July 11th 03, 01:25 PM
"Michael and Amanda Shenouda" > wrote in
t:


>>
>
> Just for my clarification (or ignorance) daytrading would mean, buy
> the stock monday sell the stock monday. correct?


correct

>so three times you
> buy one stock and sell it the sameday within five day, your a
> daytrader, is that right?

right

>then does that mean the rule doesn't count
> if you buy the stock monday and sell tuesday,

right, that's not a daytrade

Dr Tormento
July 11th 03, 01:25 PM
"Michael and Amanda Shenouda" > wrote in
t:


>>
>
> Just for my clarification (or ignorance) daytrading would mean, buy
> the stock monday sell the stock monday. correct?


correct

>so three times you
> buy one stock and sell it the sameday within five day, your a
> daytrader, is that right?

right

>then does that mean the rule doesn't count
> if you buy the stock monday and sell tuesday,

right, that's not a daytrade

TK Sung
July 11th 03, 06:07 PM
"Johnnie Kendricks" > wrote in message
...
>
> Can you trade OTC:BB stocks with Scottrade with no problem?
>
> Does Scottrade not screw you with the "unsettled cash" policy like
> Ameritrade does?
>
Sorry, I have no information on that. Perhaps ausound knows more...

TK Sung
July 11th 03, 06:07 PM
"Johnnie Kendricks" > wrote in message
...
>
> Can you trade OTC:BB stocks with Scottrade with no problem?
>
> Does Scottrade not screw you with the "unsettled cash" policy like
> Ameritrade does?
>
Sorry, I have no information on that. Perhaps ausound knows more...

daman
March 14th 05, 09:50 PM
Let me get it right.
I am a day trader per se buying and selling several times a day the
same stock with a good profit. I am trading from under marging acc so
I do not have to wait for the settlement and my cash is not held.
What's the problem with being labeled a 'day trader' then?

On the other note, I've been with Ameritrade for almost a year and
during that time, with only two exceptions, I didn't have a problem
with their execution...very fast and timely.
At one point my sell order wasn't executed at all but the stock went
actually much higher so I benefited from this.
Another time it was during extended hours my order wouldn't hit the
market at all.
I do believe that all companies are experiencing problems from time to
time.

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:49:10 GMT, "Rich." > wrote:

>
>"Clark Zahn" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> You can still trade frequently enough that you would get caught by the
>> daytrading rule if you had a margin account. I trade infrequently, but
>> I often buy and sell the same day. You don't have to do it very often
>> to get daytrader status.
>
>More than 3 daytrades in 5 rolling business days and you're tagged as a
>daytrader.

LuckyDucky
March 14th 05, 10:21 PM
> Let me get it right.
> I am a day trader per se buying and selling several times a day the
> same stock with a good profit. I am trading from under marging acc so
> I do not have to wait for the settlement and my cash is not held.
> What's the problem with being labeled a 'day trader' then?
>


No prob a'tall IF you have $25K or more in the account... if you have less
than that they'll try and whip you like a redheaded stepchild.

Fees if you trade too little... fines if you trade too much... fees if you
want to leave...get cut if you move left... get nicked if you move
right...death by a thousand cuts.

Jerry L Wilcox
March 14th 05, 10:40 PM
I have a small account with em - around 10K. I haven't had problems, but if
I do, I have no problems with closing the account.

--
Jerry



"LuckyDucky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>> Let me get it right.
>> I am a day trader per se buying and selling several times a day the
>> same stock with a good profit. I am trading from under marging acc so
>> I do not have to wait for the settlement and my cash is not held.
>> What's the problem with being labeled a 'day trader' then?
>>
>
>
> No prob a'tall IF you have $25K or more in the account... if you have less
> than that they'll try and whip you like a redheaded stepchild.
>
> Fees if you trade too little... fines if you trade too much... fees if you
> want to leave...get cut if you move left... get nicked if you move
> right...death by a thousand cuts.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

PeterL
March 14th 05, 10:44 PM
"LuckyDucky" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > Let me get it right.
> > I am a day trader per se buying and selling several times a day the
> > same stock with a good profit. I am trading from under marging acc so
> > I do not have to wait for the settlement and my cash is not held.
> > What's the problem with being labeled a 'day trader' then?
> >
>
>
> No prob a'tall IF you have $25K or more in the account... if you have
less
> than that they'll try and whip you like a redheaded stepchild.
>
> Fees if you trade too little... fines if you trade too much... fees if
you
> want to leave...get cut if you move left... get nicked if you move
> right...death by a thousand cuts.
>

Welcome to the world.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>