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  #11  
Old September 27th 03, 10:51 PM
Don Zimmerman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"DMacD" wrote in message
...

I have received advise from professional advisors and investors. I think
the best advise that I received was from an investor friend that I have.
He isn't filthy rich but he has had enough savy to make money in good
times and avoid losing lots of money in bad times. He didn't give me
specific investment tips as his investment style was probably not suited
for me. What he did say when it came to investing was a few simple
rules:

1. Don't be gready! Hanging in on a high flying stock too long will
ultimately result in a loss. Set profit taking points.

2. Watch what other investors are doing and consider doing the opposite.
When people are rushing to stocks or bonds, it usually means the
stocks/bonds are becoming over-priced. That's the time to have a
structured plan to sell portions of the stock as prices rise. The
reverse is true also. As a headsup, one way of doing this is to also
watch what the executives of a company are doing. Executives of large
corporations must disclose their trades of company stocks to the Security
commission where their stocks are traded. This becomes public knowledge.
Generally, if they are selling, it's usually a sign that the company may
be heading for some tough times. If they are buying the reverse may be
the case.

3. Buy quality and understand what you are buying. Look for stocks that
have a long history of earnings and before you buy, understand the
company and what they do. Are they an industry leader? Do you buy their
product? If so...why? You minimize your risk when you buy a quality
product.

4. If an investment sounds too good to be true (high return for little
investment) it probably is.

5. Understand your risk tolerance. If you can't deal with possibly
loosing your entire investment, then choose a safer investment. Your
returns may be smaller but you will sleep better at night.

6. Be aware of fees. Unless you want to get into day-trading, invest
for the long term. Day-traders understand the cost of trading stocks vs
the potential payout. Those of us(like myself) that have a lot to learn
about trading should buy quality stocks that move at a slower steady pace
and hold them for the long term. Fees on trading will eat away at your
profits. Likewise, high MERs on mutual funds do the same thing.

7. Diversify. Hold a well balanced portfolio of stocks, bonds and GICs,
etc. that mirrors your risk tolerance. On the stock side either use an
ETF (Exchange Traded Fund low MERs) that mirrors an stock index or
purchase quality stocks. Don't own too many stocks that you can't keep
up with current news. Owning 10 or so quality stocks that you can follow
the news on is better than owning a 30-40 or 50 stocks that you can't
keep up current events.

8. If you don't understand the cycle of cyclical stocks (energy stocks,
resource stocks) then stay out of it. Getting in at the wrong end of the
cycle can be disasterous. Buy quality industrial or retail companies that
tend to have steady profits no matter what time of the year/cycle your
in. Buy stocks in companies that people have to buy their products
irrelevant of what is happening in the world. (eg. no matter what
happens, everyone must eat. Hence grocery chains, etc.)

9. Pay particular attention to the return on the investment before you
buy. The P/E (Price to Earnings) ratio of a stock, will tell you how
long it will take for you to get your investment back. The P/E ratio is
the price of the share divided by the projected earnings. The result is
how many years it will take you to get your investment back if you held
onto the stock. Not many people are willing to wait 20 or so years to
get their money back. Hence a P/E ration of 20 or more will indicate that
the stock is over-priced (or as some say Over Sold) while a P/E ratio of
around 15 is deemed to be about par. Below 15 stocks are usually under-
valued (some say Under Sold). Although this is only a part of what you
should be looking at when buying stocks, it's a good indicator of what's
a good deal or not. As an FYI... the S&P/TSX index of companies is
currently sitting at about a P/E Ratio of 30. A little over priced for
my liking.

10. The most important rule is....be skeptical of what you read on the
internet (including what I am writing). Take it and perform an acid test
on the concepts then formulate your own opinion. Take nothing as gospel
as the views may work for that person and not you. There are many places
to try out concepts for free. Sign up to Globeinvestor, MoneySense,
Yahoo Money etc. to name a few that charge no fees and create a portfolio
with play money. See how the concept operates and once satisfied you are
comfortable with it, start using your own money.

As I am not a financial advisor, these are just my views only and I do
not want anyone to take it and run with it without investigating deeper.


Good! I like that! I agree with everything you say.



The only slight qualification I would have is your number #2. I sort of
think that if you do you follow #3, then #2 will be unnecessary. It is
probably basically true that when hoardes are buying is the time to sell and
vice versa, but in practice it is difficult to jump in and out at the right
time. If you buy quality for the long term, then frequent trading is
unnecessary. Of course, if you want to do it for fun and can afford to take
losses, that is another matter.



One thing I would like to add to your list, especially for a new investor,
is to investigate dividend reinvestment plans (DRIPS). These avoid fees and
management expenses and, if you select good sound companies with a history
of rising dividends, all your money goes to work and you have compounding
over the long term with not much risk.



  #12  
Old September 28th 03, 12:02 AM
DMacD
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Don Zimmerman" wrote in
:

"DMacD" wrote in message
...

I have received advise from professional advisors and investors. I
think the best advise that I received was from an investor friend
that I have. He isn't filthy rich but he has had enough savy to make
money in good times and avoid losing lots of money in bad times. He
didn't give me specific investment tips as his investment style was
probably not suited for me. What he did say when it came to
investing was a few simple rules:

1. Don't be gready! Hanging in on a high flying stock too long will
ultimately result in a loss. Set profit taking points.

2. Watch what other investors are doing and consider doing the
opposite. When people are rushing to stocks or bonds, it usually
means the stocks/bonds are becoming over-priced. That's the time to
have a structured plan to sell portions of the stock as prices rise.
The reverse is true also. As a headsup, one way of doing this is to
also watch what the executives of a company are doing. Executives of
large corporations must disclose their trades of company stocks to
the Security commission where their stocks are traded. This becomes
public knowledge. Generally, if they are selling, it's usually a sign
that the company may be heading for some tough times. If they are
buying the reverse may be the case.

3. Buy quality and understand what you are buying. Look for stocks
that have a long history of earnings and before you buy, understand
the company and what they do. Are they an industry leader? Do you buy
their product? If so...why? You minimize your risk when you buy a
quality product.

4. If an investment sounds too good to be true (high return for
little investment) it probably is.

5. Understand your risk tolerance. If you can't deal with possibly
loosing your entire investment, then choose a safer investment. Your
returns may be smaller but you will sleep better at night.

6. Be aware of fees. Unless you want to get into day-trading,
invest for the long term. Day-traders understand the cost of trading
stocks vs the potential payout. Those of us(like myself) that have a
lot to learn about trading should buy quality stocks that move at a
slower steady pace and hold them for the long term. Fees on trading
will eat away at your profits. Likewise, high MERs on mutual funds
do the same thing.

7. Diversify. Hold a well balanced portfolio of stocks, bonds and
GICs, etc. that mirrors your risk tolerance. On the stock side
either use an ETF (Exchange Traded Fund low MERs) that mirrors an
stock index or purchase quality stocks. Don't own too many stocks
that you can't keep up with current news. Owning 10 or so quality
stocks that you can follow the news on is better than owning a 30-40
or 50 stocks that you can't keep up current events.

8. If you don't understand the cycle of cyclical stocks (energy
stocks, resource stocks) then stay out of it. Getting in at the
wrong end of the cycle can be disasterous. Buy quality industrial or
retail companies that tend to have steady profits no matter what time
of the year/cycle your in. Buy stocks in companies that people have
to buy their products irrelevant of what is happening in the world.
(eg. no matter what happens, everyone must eat. Hence grocery chains,
etc.)

9. Pay particular attention to the return on the investment before
you buy. The P/E (Price to Earnings) ratio of a stock, will tell you
how long it will take for you to get your investment back. The P/E
ratio is the price of the share divided by the projected earnings.
The result is how many years it will take you to get your investment
back if you held onto the stock. Not many people are willing to wait
20 or so years to get their money back. Hence a P/E ration of 20 or
more will indicate that the stock is over-priced (or as some say Over
Sold) while a P/E ratio of around 15 is deemed to be about par. Below
15 stocks are usually under- valued (some say Under Sold). Although
this is only a part of what you should be looking at when buying
stocks, it's a good indicator of what's a good deal or not. As an
FYI... the S&P/TSX index of companies is currently sitting at about a
P/E Ratio of 30. A little over priced for my liking.

10. The most important rule is....be skeptical of what you read on
the internet (including what I am writing). Take it and perform an
acid test on the concepts then formulate your own opinion. Take
nothing as gospel as the views may work for that person and not you.
There are many places to try out concepts for free. Sign up to
Globeinvestor, MoneySense, Yahoo Money etc. to name a few that charge
no fees and create a portfolio with play money. See how the concept
operates and once satisfied you are comfortable with it, start using
your own money.

As I am not a financial advisor, these are just my views only and I
do not want anyone to take it and run with it without investigating
deeper.


Good! I like that! I agree with everything you say.



The only slight qualification I would have is your number #2. I sort
of think that if you do you follow #3, then #2 will be unnecessary. It
is probably basically true that when hoardes are buying is the time to
sell and vice versa, but in practice it is difficult to jump in and
out at the right time. If you buy quality for the long term, then
frequent trading is unnecessary. Of course, if you want to do it for
fun and can afford to take losses, that is another matter.



One thing I would like to add to your list, especially for a new
investor, is to investigate dividend reinvestment plans (DRIPS). These
avoid fees and management expenses and, if you select good sound
companies with a history of rising dividends, all your money goes to
work and you have compounding over the long term with not much risk.


For the most part I agree that following point 3 makes point 2
unnecessary, except that the main purpose of investing is to make money
and not gather stocks. At some time in your investing endeavors you will
have to take profits to shift your mix of investments as you age and your
risk tolerance changes. Generally the older you get the less risk you
should take. Keeping an eye on your investment horizon and having an
exit/entry strategy from the particular stock (based on who's doing what)
can have a profound difference as to what you finally end up with. This
is not timing the stockmarket, this is sound selling/buying decisions
based on your investment profile as you age.

I do agree whole heartedly on the DRIPS comment you have stated.

DGM

  #13  
Old September 28th 03, 12:02 AM
DMacD
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Don Zimmerman" wrote in
:

"DMacD" wrote in message
...

I have received advise from professional advisors and investors. I
think the best advise that I received was from an investor friend
that I have. He isn't filthy rich but he has had enough savy to make
money in good times and avoid losing lots of money in bad times. He
didn't give me specific investment tips as his investment style was
probably not suited for me. What he did say when it came to
investing was a few simple rules:

1. Don't be gready! Hanging in on a high flying stock too long will
ultimately result in a loss. Set profit taking points.

2. Watch what other investors are doing and consider doing the
opposite. When people are rushing to stocks or bonds, it usually
means the stocks/bonds are becoming over-priced. That's the time to
have a structured plan to sell portions of the stock as prices rise.
The reverse is true also. As a headsup, one way of doing this is to
also watch what the executives of a company are doing. Executives of
large corporations must disclose their trades of company stocks to
the Security commission where their stocks are traded. This becomes
public knowledge. Generally, if they are selling, it's usually a sign
that the company may be heading for some tough times. If they are
buying the reverse may be the case.

3. Buy quality and understand what you are buying. Look for stocks
that have a long history of earnings and before you buy, understand
the company and what they do. Are they an industry leader? Do you buy
their product? If so...why? You minimize your risk when you buy a
quality product.

4. If an investment sounds too good to be true (high return for
little investment) it probably is.

5. Understand your risk tolerance. If you can't deal with possibly
loosing your entire investment, then choose a safer investment. Your
returns may be smaller but you will sleep better at night.

6. Be aware of fees. Unless you want to get into day-trading,
invest for the long term. Day-traders understand the cost of trading
stocks vs the potential payout. Those of us(like myself) that have a
lot to learn about trading should buy quality stocks that move at a
slower steady pace and hold them for the long term. Fees on trading
will eat away at your profits. Likewise, high MERs on mutual funds
do the same thing.

7. Diversify. Hold a well balanced portfolio of stocks, bonds and
GICs, etc. that mirrors your risk tolerance. On the stock side
either use an ETF (Exchange Traded Fund low MERs) that mirrors an
stock index or purchase quality stocks. Don't own too many stocks
that you can't keep up with current news. Owning 10 or so quality
stocks that you can follow the news on is better than owning a 30-40
or 50 stocks that you can't keep up current events.

8. If you don't understand the cycle of cyclical stocks (energy
stocks, resource stocks) then stay out of it. Getting in at the
wrong end of the cycle can be disasterous. Buy quality industrial or
retail companies that tend to have steady profits no matter what time
of the year/cycle your in. Buy stocks in companies that people have
to buy their products irrelevant of what is happening in the world.
(eg. no matter what happens, everyone must eat. Hence grocery chains,
etc.)

9. Pay particular attention to the return on the investment before
you buy. The P/E (Price to Earnings) ratio of a stock, will tell you
how long it will take for you to get your investment back. The P/E
ratio is the price of the share divided by the projected earnings.
The result is how many years it will take you to get your investment
back if you held onto the stock. Not many people are willing to wait
20 or so years to get their money back. Hence a P/E ration of 20 or
more will indicate that the stock is over-priced (or as some say Over
Sold) while a P/E ratio of around 15 is deemed to be about par. Below
15 stocks are usually under- valued (some say Under Sold). Although
this is only a part of what you should be looking at when buying
stocks, it's a good indicator of what's a good deal or not. As an
FYI... the S&P/TSX index of companies is currently sitting at about a
P/E Ratio of 30. A little over priced for my liking.

10. The most important rule is....be skeptical of what you read on
the internet (including what I am writing). Take it and perform an
acid test on the concepts then formulate your own opinion. Take
nothing as gospel as the views may work for that person and not you.
There are many places to try out concepts for free. Sign up to
Globeinvestor, MoneySense, Yahoo Money etc. to name a few that charge
no fees and create a portfolio with play money. See how the concept
operates and once satisfied you are comfortable with it, start using
your own money.

As I am not a financial advisor, these are just my views only and I
do not want anyone to take it and run with it without investigating
deeper.


Good! I like that! I agree with everything you say.



The only slight qualification I would have is your number #2. I sort
of think that if you do you follow #3, then #2 will be unnecessary. It
is probably basically true that when hoardes are buying is the time to
sell and vice versa, but in practice it is difficult to jump in and
out at the right time. If you buy quality for the long term, then
frequent trading is unnecessary. Of course, if you want to do it for
fun and can afford to take losses, that is another matter.



One thing I would like to add to your list, especially for a new
investor, is to investigate dividend reinvestment plans (DRIPS). These
avoid fees and management expenses and, if you select good sound
companies with a history of rising dividends, all your money goes to
work and you have compounding over the long term with not much risk.


For the most part I agree that following point 3 makes point 2
unnecessary, except that the main purpose of investing is to make money
and not gather stocks. At some time in your investing endeavors you will
have to take profits to shift your mix of investments as you age and your
risk tolerance changes. Generally the older you get the less risk you
should take. Keeping an eye on your investment horizon and having an
exit/entry strategy from the particular stock (based on who's doing what)
can have a profound difference as to what you finally end up with. This
is not timing the stockmarket, this is sound selling/buying decisions
based on your investment profile as you age.

I do agree whole heartedly on the DRIPS comment you have stated.

DGM

  #14  
Old September 28th 03, 01:46 AM
Don Zimmerman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"DMacD" wrote in message
...
For the most part I agree that following point 3 makes point 2
unnecessary, except that the main purpose of investing is to make money
and not gather stocks. At some time in your investing endeavors you will
have to take profits to shift your mix of investments as you age and your
risk tolerance changes. Generally the older you get the less risk you
should take. Keeping an eye on your investment horizon and having an
exit/entry strategy from the particular stock (based on who's doing what)
can have a profound difference as to what you finally end up with. This
is not timing the stockmarket, this is sound selling/buying decisions
based on your investment profile as you age.

I do agree whole heartedly on the DRIPS comment you have stated.


Agreed! It is interesting that no one in this newsgroup has answered Jim's
original question: "How do I find a planner who will give unbiased,
independent advice?" If despite suggestions to do it himself he still feels
the need of a financial advisor, then he surely wants an answer to that
original question about how to find one, which strangely enough no expert in
this newsgroup has provided!



I went to Google and typed in "fee for service financial advisor" and got a
vast number of hits. I also tried "fee only financial advisor" and got still
more. Be sure to check the "pages from Canada" box unless you also want a
lot of US sites. The information is there if you seek it!



  #15  
Old September 28th 03, 01:46 AM
Don Zimmerman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"DMacD" wrote in message
...
For the most part I agree that following point 3 makes point 2
unnecessary, except that the main purpose of investing is to make money
and not gather stocks. At some time in your investing endeavors you will
have to take profits to shift your mix of investments as you age and your
risk tolerance changes. Generally the older you get the less risk you
should take. Keeping an eye on your investment horizon and having an
exit/entry strategy from the particular stock (based on who's doing what)
can have a profound difference as to what you finally end up with. This
is not timing the stockmarket, this is sound selling/buying decisions
based on your investment profile as you age.

I do agree whole heartedly on the DRIPS comment you have stated.


Agreed! It is interesting that no one in this newsgroup has answered Jim's
original question: "How do I find a planner who will give unbiased,
independent advice?" If despite suggestions to do it himself he still feels
the need of a financial advisor, then he surely wants an answer to that
original question about how to find one, which strangely enough no expert in
this newsgroup has provided!



I went to Google and typed in "fee for service financial advisor" and got a
vast number of hits. I also tried "fee only financial advisor" and got still
more. Be sure to check the "pages from Canada" box unless you also want a
lot of US sites. The information is there if you seek it!



  #16  
Old September 28th 03, 01:51 AM
Mike Higgs
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Jim" wrote in message
.. .

Jim,

I'm assuming that you are looking for financial planning and not just
financial advice. You can get a list of fee based financial planners he
http://tinyurl.com/owwg. I think that the idea of developing a financial
plan with a planner is a good idea but be very careful when you get into the
financial advice area. I would suggest that you go to the Globe & Mail
website - http://tinyurl.com/owwl - and start looking at the number of funds
that underperform their comparison benchmarks over time. I did an analysis
earlier this year that cover the 3000 open-ended mutual funds that existed
at the time and the results were impressively poor:

Excluding money market funds only 8% of all funds had a 15 year history and
only 35% of those beat their benchmark. Only 15% had a 10 year history and
only 24% beat their benchmark. 39% of funds had a 5 year history with 35%
beating their benchmark. The 10 and 15 year numbers reflect the performance
of surviving funds. Those with even worse records would have been merged
into other funds or wound down.

There are some funds that have outperformed over time. But that is
history - you don't know if that performance will continue. And it is
impossible determine ahead of time who will outperform in the future. And
adding insult to injury are the MERs. The average Canadian equity fund has a
MER of around 2.5%. That means that if you buy a fund at $10 today and sell
it 10 years from now at $10, you will have lost 25% to the MER. There are
some cheaper funds but it's still the same problem.

Where I'm going with this is that you are far better off constructing an
appropriately balanced portfolio using exchange traded index funds -
http://www.iunits.com/english/index.cfm. You will find MERs that are 0.35%
or less so you immediately save something around 2.15% each year. You also
avoid the problem of manager selection. There are some index funds offered
by the banks but they are not as cheap as the exchange traded funds.

It is very possible to do it yourself - cheaply, safely and rationally. The
most difficult part of the exercise will be the annual rebalancing since you
will be selling high and buying low which is a very tough thing to do.

There are a some excelllent do-it-yourself sites:

http://tinyurl.com/59pk - which is a good general primer on DIY investing
http://tinyurl.com/5je5 - which focuses on index investing
http://tinyurl.com/oww7 - which is a wealth of spreadsheets, studies, etc on
all areas of investing.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike


--
Email:



  #17  
Old September 28th 03, 01:51 AM
Mike Higgs
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Jim" wrote in message
.. .

Jim,

I'm assuming that you are looking for financial planning and not just
financial advice. You can get a list of fee based financial planners he
http://tinyurl.com/owwg. I think that the idea of developing a financial
plan with a planner is a good idea but be very careful when you get into the
financial advice area. I would suggest that you go to the Globe & Mail
website - http://tinyurl.com/owwl - and start looking at the number of funds
that underperform their comparison benchmarks over time. I did an analysis
earlier this year that cover the 3000 open-ended mutual funds that existed
at the time and the results were impressively poor:

Excluding money market funds only 8% of all funds had a 15 year history and
only 35% of those beat their benchmark. Only 15% had a 10 year history and
only 24% beat their benchmark. 39% of funds had a 5 year history with 35%
beating their benchmark. The 10 and 15 year numbers reflect the performance
of surviving funds. Those with even worse records would have been merged
into other funds or wound down.

There are some funds that have outperformed over time. But that is
history - you don't know if that performance will continue. And it is
impossible determine ahead of time who will outperform in the future. And
adding insult to injury are the MERs. The average Canadian equity fund has a
MER of around 2.5%. That means that if you buy a fund at $10 today and sell
it 10 years from now at $10, you will have lost 25% to the MER. There are
some cheaper funds but it's still the same problem.

Where I'm going with this is that you are far better off constructing an
appropriately balanced portfolio using exchange traded index funds -
http://www.iunits.com/english/index.cfm. You will find MERs that are 0.35%
or less so you immediately save something around 2.15% each year. You also
avoid the problem of manager selection. There are some index funds offered
by the banks but they are not as cheap as the exchange traded funds.

It is very possible to do it yourself - cheaply, safely and rationally. The
most difficult part of the exercise will be the annual rebalancing since you
will be selling high and buying low which is a very tough thing to do.

There are a some excelllent do-it-yourself sites:

http://tinyurl.com/59pk - which is a good general primer on DIY investing
http://tinyurl.com/5je5 - which focuses on index investing
http://tinyurl.com/oww7 - which is a wealth of spreadsheets, studies, etc on
all areas of investing.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike


--
Email:



  #18  
Old September 28th 03, 11:50 PM
Greg Goss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jim wrote:

2) I've been searching the web looking for a Canadian (Toronto area)
financial planner and so far every one I've found seems more interested
in doing the investing for me (i.e. paid by commissions against my
investments).


You are looking for a "fee for service" or "fee-only" advisor. Be
aware that the going rate is high double digits into the triple digits
per-hour price.

A fee-for-service advisor can tell you to buy bonds. A "normal"
advisor cannot rationally send you to bonds, even though half of your
money should be in them.

There are links to a few referral services at the bottom of
http://www.bylo.org/ilinks.html . I trust Bylo, but know nothing
about these services.

http://www.cafp.org/search/search.cfm?Province=ON gives 32 fee-only
planners in Toronto, when I didn't choose a specialty.
  #19  
Old September 28th 03, 11:50 PM
Greg Goss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jim wrote:

2) I've been searching the web looking for a Canadian (Toronto area)
financial planner and so far every one I've found seems more interested
in doing the investing for me (i.e. paid by commissions against my
investments).


You are looking for a "fee for service" or "fee-only" advisor. Be
aware that the going rate is high double digits into the triple digits
per-hour price.

A fee-for-service advisor can tell you to buy bonds. A "normal"
advisor cannot rationally send you to bonds, even though half of your
money should be in them.

There are links to a few referral services at the bottom of
http://www.bylo.org/ilinks.html . I trust Bylo, but know nothing
about these services.

http://www.cafp.org/search/search.cfm?Province=ON gives 32 fee-only
planners in Toronto, when I didn't choose a specialty.
  #20  
Old September 28th 03, 11:58 PM
Greg Goss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Don Zimmerman" wrote:

One thing I would like to add to your list, especially for a new investor,
is to investigate dividend reinvestment plans (DRIPS). These avoid fees and
management expenses and, if you select good sound companies with a history
of rising dividends, all your money goes to work and you have compounding
over the long term with not much risk.


There is a big expense in picking up the first registered share of a
company so that you can drip from there. It cost me about $70 each
for my three companies that I DRIP into. If you know someone with
registered (non-broker) shares in an interesting company, then there
are *NO* surcharges to buy a share from him directly instead of from a
broker. I have given away Scotiabank shares as a birthday gift, for
example.

If someone lives in Vancouver and needs that "seed" share that would
allow them to invest in Scotiabank or Telus or Enervest, then I could
help.
 




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